Send Out Cards: You’ve Been Had!
A guest post by Dennis Yu, CEO of BlitzLocal, provider of local Internet advertising services.
A quick primer on SendOutCards.com: It is a MLM scheme, like many other MLM schemes. It just happens to be one of the newest, and it’s popular with stay at home parents who can’t work outside their homes. The idea is that you can send greeting cards to friends, family, coworkers and whoever without ever going to the store to buy a card; you just type the message into a form on a website and the card gets printed and sent without you having to do anything else. It actually sounds like a pretty decent product – except that’s not actually the point of the program. The object of Send Out Cards is to find more distributors and get more people selling, because the more people sell the more you make. Classic.
The Facts:
I don’t know about you, but I’d think that it’s pretty hard to argue with the facts that Send Out Cards themselves publishes. Nobody has made it to Level 7– the Eagle, 95.5% of users are still stuck at level 1 (Distributor), and 69% of Distributors did ZERO income. But don’t take our word for it– here is what SendOutCards.com published themselves:
We talked in a previous post about whether Send Out Cards is a scam, and this lady named Sandy wrote an impassioned defense (total page has 4,634 words)– her self-proclaimed credentials are that she’s a Social Networking expert, a successful attorney, and, of course, a vigorous defender of Send Out Cards. Let’s just say that the product is, like she says, of amazing quality and that people just love it. It’s so good, she claims, that you don’t even need to sell the system because it sells itself. Obviously that’s not the case because she’s so impassioned about selling it. All we have to do is to look at what Send Out Cards say themselves – it clearly does not sell itself because nobody makes any money selling it, duh.
Stay-at-home parents should have their guard up when someone tells them something that sounds too good to be true. We aren’t like other workers. We have to stay at home to make money, and we can sometimes get desperate because of our limited options. If it sounds fishy, it is fishy – period. Sure — there are beautiful people in their video– just like you- telling success stories to inspiring background music. Makes you want to pull out your credit card and sign up right now.
Do cigarettes cause cancer? Of course not.
Will that attractive lady go home with you if you drink the right beer? Most certainly!
Is Send Out Cards your way to get rich? Definitely– just ask Sandy!
Our previous post now ranks #6 in Google for “Sendoutcards.com scam” and has been attracting attention. That’s what happens when you’re on the first page of a reasonably popular term. And you don’t even need to be an Internet marketing expert to do it. Just write good stuff in your blog– and when people promote it, Google notices, thus giving you a boost in search results. Sandy has unwittingly boosted our previous post up the rankings with her vigorous defense or the system. Why not take advantage of that and hit another one out of the park, right?
So if you’re a stay at home parent and want to consider Send Out Cards– is it a scam? Not necessarily. If you want to buy overpriced cards (when factoring in the cost to join, plus all the people who get paid when you do join), then the cost is probably not that different than buying cards at the store, and it is, in Sandy’s defense, a convenient way to send cards – if you buy enough cards to really cover the cost of joining the scheme. For sending cards it’s not a scam. Sandy is right about that. But, for making money? Yes! It is most definitely a scam. You are 95.5% guaranteed to make very very little money and 69% guaranteed to make no money at all (or lose money). Those are the facts.
If you want to test the program, you should talk to Sandy in the earlier post– if you sign up under her link, she gets paid.
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This is classic. And a very helpful reminder for all of us. A lot of scams and schemes out there, and so many more ways to inject them into our lives.
BigLittleWolf´s last blog ..Boys don’t make passes at girls who wear glasses
Just another re-wrapped pyramid. Will people ever learn? I doubt it.
Of course. Just like spending money to become a realtor is a scam. So many realtors never sell a house and don’t make any money. Must be a scam.
A job where you don’t work and don’t make any money. Definitely a scam.
Only those opportunities where you’re guaranteed to get rich WITHOUT working – those are the real deals.
Of course.
Debbie, maybe you don’t know the nature of what a pyramid scheme is if you think it’s just a matter of not making money. It is nothing like selling real estate; there is value in real estate; it can be resold at a profit to another single buyer in the future. Pyramid schemes are inherently dishonest because they feed on expanding bases, which ALWAYS ends up screwing whoever gets in too late, to support themselves. Maybe you ought to look up what a pyramid scheme is before you equate it to trying to make an honest dollar.
Mom, people will never learn. People simply don’t understand the nature of what a ponzi scheme is, and if they do and they still engage in them, they are seriously dishonest people.
Thanks BigLittleWolf. As always, you get it
Just like any business, you have to get customers to be viable (=make money). If you don’t get customers, your business fails. Send Out Cards is no different. You don’t HAVE to bring in distributors to make money. Yes, if you bring in distributors, you make more, much like McDonald’s going in to franchise mode to expand it’s sales base. But you can also make money (including residuals) by gaining customers, without a single new distributor.
Before starting any business, you need to evaluate the market to determine if you can generate new business, customers, clients who want the products/services you provide. If the market is too competitive, it might be too hard for you to generate enough business, so you end up folding (i.e. making no money).
Send Out Cards is no different. When looking at it, you evaluate if there’s a market for the product and determine if you have the ability to market it effectively in order to make money. 85% of new businesses fail, most of which would require MUCH more of an investment than Send Out Cards. Some people succeed; others don’t. That fact, which is true for ANY new business, does not make it a scam.
A business providing a legitimate service or product (which is used by customers on an ongoing basis) is not in any way, shape, or form a ponzi scheme. The business is fed by service usage at all levels, not just the bottom.
Debbie. Look at the numbers (which i’ve been so good as to provide here). Almost nobody makes any money at Sendoutcards. Look at the chart and notice that, as pathetic as the numbers are, they are even more sad because the quoted return is GROSS — not net (real business couldn’t even sustain themselves on what you consider success). You’re being patently dishonest by saying “some people succeed; Others don’t”. Look at the data for god’s sake! Nobody makes it. And you still seem unwilling to admit that this is a pyramid scheme. I’m guessing you must be a sendoucards member or a participant in another similar scam. Dennis stated very clearly in the article that the mere act of sending cards through the service is indeed a product — it’s not a product anybody really wants, but it’s a product. The problem with pyramid schemes is that the product is always an afterthought; it’s merely a vehicle for the pyramid. It isn’t as bad as someone telling their friend to send them 5 dollars and then getting the friends of their friends to send another 5 dollars — that’s how they get away with not being shut down. But the underlying principal of the business is absolutely a MLM scheme. Absolutely.
Keith, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Consider blogging. How may get rich off of i? I would venture to say the numbers are even more dismal than Send Out Cards. That doesn’t make it a scam. A blogger who finds a profitable niche, puts in hard work, learns how to do the business, etc., etc, can potentially make a good living. I would guess that 99%+ do not put in that kind of work and therefore don’t make money. You might argue that many “bloggers” are recreational and therefore don’t expect to make money. The same goes for Send Out Cards (or most any other business) – if you work hard, learn how to do the business, etc., etc, you can potentially make a good living from selling a legitimate product that people want/need. Some people actually sign up as a distributor without any intention to make a lot of money – they do it for the possibility of making a little extra while they’re promoting their main business. MOST Send Out Cards “distributors” are using the service to promote other businesses.
“it’s not a product anybody really wants, but it’s a product” – Definitely a matter of opinion. Personally, I don’t believe pornography is anything that anyone really wants, but I’d, quite obviously, be wrong. Greeting cards may not be a product that YOU would want, but there are definitely other people and businesses who get great benefit from it – either for personal use or business use.
The MLM method of distribution is just that – a method of distribution, advertising, and marketing. If you consider the product overpriced, there are plenty of “over-priced” products on the market which support viable businesses because they fill a need. The method of distribution doesn’t make it a scam, any more than an expensive advertising campaign is a scam (which may or may not make money for a company).
It is NOT a method to get rich quick.
It does NOT sell itself.
It IS a legitimate way to potentially make money as a home-based business through honest hard work of selling, promotion, etc. – just like any other commission-based sales job.
Just like in any profession/industry/company, there are shiesters – hopefully you’ll recognize and avoid them wherever you find them.
Nope, you’re wrong. You keep trying to equate a pyramid scheme with other more legitimate businesses. That’s where you keep getting hung up. I never said a business that didn’t make money was a scam. I said MLM businesses, if they make money or not (which they don’t), are scams because of the business model. It’s cut and dry, black and white; the MLM distribution method focuses not on the service or product but the pyramid itself to sustain growth. That is dishonest because it is destined to burn out and leave whoever is last holding the bag. This is not a agree to disagree sort of situation, Debbie. It can only come to that point if you first acknowledge the definition of a MLM scheme. Right now, it’s you plugging your ears and going “la lalalaalalaala”. You would see how it is not like other businesses if you knew the inevitability of failure and you could see the inevitability that someone else will get hurt from the system itself.
OK, I find it absolutely classic that someone would defend an MLM when the MLM’s own statistics proves that the only money to be made is in the top .15%. With any sales gig you can surely argue the 90/10 rule in terms of success, but any “distribution” method that results in success for only .15% of its base is not a distribution method, but an anomaly.
PJ Mullen´s last blog ..A post of thanks
Ummm….why pay for these cards when HALLMARK CARDS has FREE e-cards???????? Which we all know is what you send when you care enough to send the very best!!
I’m with Angie. I’ve never heard of Send Out Cards, but it sounds like a lot of free stuff already out there… no wonder no one is making any money with it. Plus, you’re 100% right about the buisness model. It’s pyramid plain and simple and there’s no amount of saying it’s not that will change that fact.
Angie, Exactly! Excellent point! Clearly the point of any MLM has almost nothing to do with the “product”.
PJ, I was thinking the same thing. Why argue with the facts, right. My theory is that some people just don’t understand what Pyramid schemes really do. They see it as just another sales method. It’s their loss because they will be the ones suffering in the end.
I paid $398 for the Entreprenuer package and I think it’s a pretty good deal. I don’t believe I’ll ever become rich doing it but for the price I can send a (actually very high quality) card to anyone without having to go to the store, get a stamp and put it in the mailbox. It has a contact manager that allows me to keep track of my business contacts, their family birthdays and more. If I’m traveling and have an Internet connection, I can send a real card to any of them in a minute or two for less than a dollar. And attach a nice gift if I want. And the thing about is that the person recieving the card is not innundated with an ad to join, Its transparent and unannoying that way. I think it will help my other business in more ways than I know. I’m tired of email cards anyways…
I started using SendOutCards for my real estate business. I didn’t know it was an MLM at first and I had no intentions of joining one. I joined as a customer. After I sent the first few cards, I realized what an incredible tool it was and I wanted to share it with the other 400 agents in my office. (I always tell people about the real estate tools that I like and no ever offered to pay me a commission for it~so why not). I’ve had a great time sending cards to family, friends and clients with photos and sometimes sending along gifts (brownies are one of my favorites) and gift cards (I always send a Starbuck’s card to other Realtors that send me referrals). It’s always nice to get something in the mail that isn’t a bill or junk mail.
SendOutCards may be an MLM, but it’s a awesome product with incredible people behind it. I know the family and the story behind it and I wouldn’t trade the experiences I’ve had from sending heartfelt cards to my family and friends and the many wonderful relationships I’ve formed with other SendOutCards users for anything.
I am transitioning from my 10 year career in real estate to SendOutCards full-time and I couldn’t be happier about it. I love sharing SendOutCards and my experiences with SOC with other people. Whether they just use it as a customer or as a distributor ~ I know that I am sharing something with them that is going to bless them 3 times…When they send that card…When the recipient receives it…and when the recipient calls and thanks them for it. It’s nice to know that someone was thinking about you.
I know there have been some negative comments on this page, so I invite you all to go to my site at (sorry, Vanessa. I had to take out your link) and check it out for yourself. Send a card on me to someone you love or someone you owe a thank you card to and see how great it feels. I’m even covering the 1st-class postage.
You can call me at 214-564-4548 if you have more questions.
It may be an MLM, but it’s an MLM at it’s best! That’s not a bad thing. It’s an amazing product and a tribute to Kody Bateman’s brother, Kris Bateman. Kody had a prompting to hug his brother and tell him he loved him the last time he saw him…not knowing it would be the last time. His brother was killed in a work-related accident and he missed that last chance to tell him goodbye. Kody made a promise to Kris that he would never ignore another prompting and he would try to help others to do the same. That was 20 years ago and with SendOutCards he has preserved his brothers’ legacy and touched many lives by encouraging and giving us the tools to act on our promptings every day. Thanks Kody!
So this article’s author owns an online advertising company?
He profits from people NOT using network marketing, right?
Realtors, Insurance Agents, Mortgage Lenders and so many other professions rely on Network Marketing to advertise and grow.
SendOutCards pays most of its commissions on product that is purchased and used. Pyramid schemes involve NO products being moved or purchased. Pyramid schemes are ILLEGAL and Network Marketing Companies are LEGAL.
If there’s one thing it takes to be successful with Network Marketing it’s FAITH. The same faith it would take to open a Donut shop or hardware store in your local town (or dare I add BLOG). There are Network Marketing companies that have been in operation for decades and are still operating decades after establishment.
Your pyramid scheme image is irresponsible because SendOutCards is not a pyramid scheme. You’re misleading people. You’re in advertising primarily so it’s an understandable mistake to report improperly.
Regardless, most of the wealth in this nation is in the top 1% – if you judge the distribution of wealth in the U.S. you could argue that being an American doesn’t make you any money. Which is correct because you have to do WORK to earn income.
SendOutCards is upfront and honest about their company. I’m making money by promoting the business and coaching people to use the system. For my work I get paid. Just like when I punch a time-clock.
Seems the only people defending this are people who are also selling it — Josh. Should that surprise me? I’ve said everything there is to say. Sendoutcards is upfront about affiliate earnings because they are required to be by law. You’re a fool if you think they would report those numbers by free will; they’re terrible. Worse than brick and mortar startups — far far worse. You aren’t making any money, Josh, and if you are a betting person, you have better odds gambling in vegas.
Thank you Keith for giving us an observation and not a simple opinion. However your painful decision to be done with this makes it clear: you’re a quitter.
I may be a fool but I also do not pride myself on my opinions. I do feel accomplished when I learn something new or tackle a debate of reason.
Complying with laws makes you honest. Breaking laws makes you a criminal. Manipulating laws makes you immoral.
Perhaps focusing efforts on necessities such as income instead of virtuous home-schooling or child-rearing you could begin to grasp the notion that life is a large guessing game with many odds.
Sometimes work is more rewarding at certain times more than others. Maybe you see your halo through a tinted spyglass?
Josh, I hate to burst your bubble and all, but your assumptions about me are quite wrong. I’ve owned my own business and I’ve made quite a bit of money in the past so I know a little bit about that part of life too. I am a stay at home dad out of choice and because it is the best use of my time. You trashing stay at home parents as naive only shines a light on your own life’s gaping holes. The fact that you are threatened enough by me to post such an ignorantly assumptive rebuttal is humorous more than it is insulting. Now, why on earth would you feel the need to belittle stay at home parents and bloggers who write about parenting issues? What does that have to do with the central argument of sendoutscams, er, cards? Oh, and I do pride myself on my opinions, that’s true. Mostly because I value myself and the research I put into my arguments before I open my mouth or start writing. I pride my research and, by extension, my opinions. Nothing wrong with that.
Don’t feel bad for a second Keith – You didn’t burst my bubble!
Stop misconstruing what I said as well. I never trashed stay-at-home parents. I think it is one of the best situations for many couples with children. I was making disdainful remarks about your viewpoint is all.
Let’s correct something as well. You have opinions – not research. All of the “research” posted here does not apply to SendOutCards. Your work here amounts to posting an image of an orange because you’re talking about the round edges of an apple.
Consider then your position as owning your own business at one point or another. Did you have employees? Was there pay based on the work they contributed? From all sales did you not receive a portion for your personal profit?
Because you like to boast that you’ve made quite a bit of money then you’ve “scammed” your employees. You were “scammed” by your personal start-up costs. Starting a business takes an enormous amount of time and money and to consider how hard my family has worked, your benighted opinions are hardly respectable forms of “research” on “scams” as a result of your slanted viewpoints.
Take heed that while I despise the way in which you use your time and how you build inflammatory hype for your opinions I do appreciate that for your situation there is gender equality. If only more fathers could spend more time with their children we might live in a more balanced world.
But alas, your ignorance founders you.
Here’s a proper addendum to the “research” above.
To join SendOutCards you have three options:
1. Basic Retail – you get points to buy cards and access to Picture Plus, a service that allows you to print your own custom cards with full bleed images and text.
2. Wholesale – you get more points than in Basic Retail at a reduced price, plus you receive your signature font for use in your cards and Picture Plus as well.
3. Entrepreneur – just like the Wholesale you get points, signature font and custom card service.
In all three instances product – here in the form of points which buy cards – is moved at each transaction.
For pyramid schemes NO product moves. Absolutely NONE. SendOutCards moves product and only pays Entrepreneurs when product MOVES. Which it does each and every time a transaction occurs.
Most people make money with SendOutCards because you earn a percentage (2% – 12%) on the amount of points people below you continue to purchase. Again, points are the product because they are used to pay for the cards. You are only paid when people below you buy cards and you receive a commission from that.
There is nothing related to a Pyramid Scheme outside of using network marketing to promote the business and grow.
Beware of network marketing companies that do not move product – SendOutCards moves tens of thousands of products a day.
I didn’t misconstrue anything you said, Josh. “perhaps focusing efforts on necessities such as income instead of virtuous home-schooling or child-rearing you could begin to grasp the notion that life is a large guessing game with many odds.” That’s what you said. Everybody knows what you’re saying here. No misconstruing, Josh. I’ll let your own words dig your hole for you.
Are you also saying that making a profit means I’ve scammed people? I’m pretty sure you’re going to lose that argument too. I didn’t ever boast about anything. Remember? I was responding to your assumptions about me from the above quote? Convenient memory you’ve got there.
Nothing you say is going to cause me to “take heed”
Lastly, let me just remind everyone here that Josh is selling Sendout Cards. It is in his best interest to trash me and try to defend his little piece of earth here. Notice, and it’s painfully clear, that the only people defending this distribution method are the people who are involved in it trying to get you to sign up.
“There is nothing related to a Pyramid Scheme outside of using network marketing to promote the business and grow.” Yeah, that what Dennis said, Josh. Nothing to see here except the big gorilla in the room!
Painfully clear Keith that attempting to belittle the people who defend SendOutCards is only emphasizing that only close friends of yours have even commented here.
Your only defense is avoidance and pointing your finger elsewhere. You cannot be adult enough to admit the correlation I drew between you being atop a company, earning profit and having other people work below you. If it was a snake it would have bit you.
Be proud of your ideal situation staying at home and let it be. If you’re at peace with it you should be able to leave it alone.
My memory is a very convenient tool I posses and utilize in a fashion you have yet to demonstrate.
Your opinions are worse than a wart on a finger, a pimple on the nose or a stay at home father who’s online blog partner spends hours a day playing Farmville on Facebook doing “research”.
You clearly boasted that your resume included owning your own business that made quite a lot of money. Why lie?
What has happened with these comments is this: three people defending a company that was irresponsibly reproached, ignorantly assailed and ruthlessly slandered.
We have yet to hear from this author. We’ve only heard from you Keith. Two boys with toys that have no business wandering outside of their bubbles.
Of course nothing said here that might challenge you would be something you would ever be capable to take heed.
Hi Josh,
It’s clear you like SendOutCards and want to vigorously defend it. How about writing a guest post that either Keith or myself can post? Rather than talk in generalities about how it’s a great service, how other forms of advertising/business are no better, or insulting other people, tell us specifically about your experience.
Tell us when you started, how much time you’ve put in, what level you are, and what you’ve earned. Maybe talk about what has worked for you and what hasn’t. The more openly you share, the less one-sided you come off.
Certainly, it may feel good to bash someone else, but it does less to help your cause and does more to make you look like a screaming Internet idiot. So I’d invite you to write a post that would be worthy of being run in the Wall Street Journal or other outlet, as opposed to a rambling rant that just attacks others and doesn’t educate.
So there is an option for you– let me know what you think.
I’ll accept your invitation, Dennis, with simple conditions.
First, my guest post should be linked to your previous two posts on SendOutCards. That way both views are easily accessible.
Second, there be no addendum or notes to the actual post. Comments allowed but no editing the content of the post from you or Keith.
Finally, consider this as an appeasement and offer to apologize that I have offended you both.
I am not considered vulgar or obnoxiously hateful by people who have actually met me and I do not act in such ways. Though I would have to say that the nature of your previous posts and comments did offend and were unfounded to myself, Vanessa and Debbie. Whether you intended to do so or not, that is still how your words and rhetoric were interpreted by us.
I await your reply.
Josh,
That is fair. Also, no selling of SendOutCards or personal bashing– I think you know what would be acceptable. Tell your story, be specific– show people your personal experience as opposed to the rhetoric we see on most forums. We are looking forward to this– I think what you have to say will be interesting.
Ok, I felt a need to wade in here. It seems that there is a fair amount of bashing going on, but I need to clarify one thing: (sorry, I have to remove links — no disrespect intended)
and here:
(again, removing link. SEO reasons)
This is the definition of a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. Legitimate MLMs are not Ponzi’s. That is a fact. You make money in an MLM by both getting customers and getting others who build a business. Like a traditional franchise.
McDonalds could be called a Pyramid by the same methods berated above. Ok, I have been a Network Marketer for years. I have only customers. I have been making money, consistently, with Melaleuca for 4 years and I haven’t recruited a soul.
No one. I have made money every month for 4 years and I haven’t worked my business in that time. Not once. Ok, so is it hard? Yes.
Most people fail with an MLM because they don’t run it like a business. Period.
And they aren’t taught how to run it like a business. So, do I recruit. No. Why? Because people looking for a business come looking for you through your customer base. Do I ask for huge sums? No, come to my business through a basic retail and see that it will work.
I have looked at Send Out Cards. It offers a legitimate product, at a decent price. $99 and if you send out more cards, you pay more in order to pay less. Hey, that is how many many companies work.
What I don’t understand from this group here is why you don’t try to discover the truth yourself? You bash and say “Oh, e-cards are better and free” or “Hallmark”. Ok, but what is Send Out Cards doing that works so well that it has so many customers. I am not saying the business builders. Customers.
Sure, most of them don’t make money. I don’t go to McDonalds, buy a shake and a store. I go to get a salad (I don’t eat meat) and a drink. And then I leave.
So, sure, if you ask them, “do you make money” 99% are going to say no. But if you ask them if they would continue to use the company’s products, 80% would say yes. I know this because this is the number you need to look at and that is quantifiable (return customer numbers).
Sorry to interject, but it frustrates me when people jump out and say “Pyramid!” and they are not correct.
Legitimate companies offer a legitimate service or product. Melaleuca, Pampered Chef, Partylite, Pre-Paid Legal and Send Out Cards.
And they all are offering a product to customers AND a way to make money if you want. Most people just want the hamburger… not the store.
Annie Sires´s last blog ..The Things That Matter Most
Annie, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. And, you make an excellent point. You’re actually right about what a pyramid scheme is. We used the term generically to describe businesses and a distribution method which I consider outdated and predatory. So, technically, you are right. I’ve always considered Pampered chef, Mary Kay, and Pre-Paid Legal to be legitimate businesses. But, let me also say in the same breath that, while I have some experience with all of those companies that the sellers of those services have always tried to get me to fall in under them to start selling. That is what bothers me most. So, the service might be acceptable (although I would argue the quality of sendout cards’ offering), but the pressure to sell is not. It is clear to me that for too many people the service is not what is important, rather it’s the recruitment of underlings that they find most important. To me that’s objectionable. When I go into a McDonalds I’ve never been asked to start a franchise after buying a hamburger. But, Pre-Paid legal has repeatedly tried to recruit me even though all I want is the service. My wife did Pampered Chef and it was the same story.
I’ll agree with you that our categorization of the method as a pure pyramid is wrong. But, the spirit of a pyramid is very prevalent. That people don’t seem to care about the product as much as the recruitment of others. That is scammy to me. I would like to try a service without getting the pressure sell. It just doesn’t happen with MLM’s. The pressure sell is always there because there is strong incentive to be higher on the pyramid.
There was a time when MLM’s were a necessary distribution method. They were intended to reach rural areas that did not lend themselves to traditional marketing. It was a word of mouth method that worked well for stay at home moms who didn’t get out much. To that end it was an admirable model. Today though they are unnecessary and somewhat disingenuous. No longer is it women who can’t get out or don’t watch TV. It’s people clambering to recruit each other and climb to the top of the heap. The innocence of the model has evaporated with the rise of mass distribution of media. It is unnecessary and, in my opinion, not a legitimate method anymore. Its time has come and gone. Take Tupperware for instance. They have transitioned to a traditional business model that is reliant on media to distribute their product. You don’t hear of Tupperware parties anymore. It just burned out. Mary Kay could easily do the same thing as they have pretty much reached their apex as well.
Legally this is not a scam. Morally Send out cards and any other MLM is a HUGE scam. The few that make money do it by making outrageous claims of big money and just look at how rich they are! I was in an MLM for 2 years before I realized what a joke it was. I wasted 2 years of time and thousands of dollars. The only people that make the big money in these things are the sociopaths willing to lie and stretch the truth their way into it. It’s just social time for the rest of the distributors. DOWN WITH MLM!!!!!!
Ronald, I absolutely agree with you. That’s the problem with MLM schemes. We can’t get rid of them because they’re selling an actual product. At the same time they use a model that, by it’s nature, ensures failure to the majority of it’s participants. It’s not a mystery why they exist. Simply, that a few people can get rich really quickly. Of course, they do it on the backs of suckers.
I have been in MLM’s in the past. The problem, to be frank, is not the MLM. Some people DO MAKE MONEY. The question is, are you willing to do what it takes to be successful? Or are you just a customer. People who want to make money forget to ask the right question and it’s one I ask every person I do business with: Am I calling YOUR name? What do I mean? Well, when I market my product, I am calling a name, “Bob”. I only want Bobs. In other words, I am saying “I market a product for people who want to have a way to remember to send a real card without having to go to the store and post office themselves.” Is that you? Does that sound like you? No? Ok, that’s ok. Then your name isn’t Bob and I am not calling your name. And if it is, do you want to make money to do it? It takes work. Lots of work. Lots of calling people’s names and hearing, “No, I’m not a Bob. I’m a Joe.”
That’s it. No scam. People just don’t ask the right questions.
This will offend, I know, I’m sorry right now, in advance. You didn’t get taken because the company was bad. You didn’t get taken. You gave your money willingly to buy a product. The rest was up to you. If I don’t get enough customers to buy my services as a dog trainer, it’s not the dog training that is bad or a scam. It’s my way of doing business. I’m sorry if that’s harsh. A lot of people hate the way MLM’s do business. The reality is that Microsoft does the same things. So do a hundred companies…. Heck, the CDC recently started telemarketing… so are they a scam?
Please don’t take this wrong. I am not a huge business builder. But I have made money in MLMs. I am making enough to pay for my products in Melaleuca. And I haven’t worked my business in Melaleuca in 4 years. That means that the hand-full of customers I have have been paying for my business for 4 years. Do you know of another company or business outside of MLM where your customers 4 YEARS AGO are still paying you? Not many.
Anyway, I wish you all well, I was actually doing some research and I am glad I found this site. God Bless you all and Merry Christmas. Personal KIND replies are welcome as are discussions. Flames telling me I’m the spawn of hell or Satan’s Mistress are not appreciated and are unprofessional, so please drop them in the trash before sending.
Annie S
Dog Trainer
Annie Sires´s last blog ..A Little Arm Twisting
I’ve been using Send Out Cards as Thank You cards for my customers at my furniture store. I send out about 75 cards per month. We use to do the cards ourselves… purchase, address, mail, etc. Now that I use Send Out Cards I’ll probably save about $1,500 this year… about $1.50 savings per card. They are also done in my own handwriting.
Keith, find me a better service at a better price and I’ll switch in a New York minute. It’s the best contact management tool I’ve ever found. It’s refreshing to send out personal “Thank You’s” the old-fashion way… especially when 60% of my email contacts get undelivered. And with escalating media costs for traditional advertising… customer appreciation is a welcomed strategy.
Anyway, you’re doing a huge disservice to your readers by trashing Send Out Cards. If the MLM model keeps them afloat, then who cares. Bottom line: Valuable Product – Valuable Service… for the end user. Isn’t that what counts?
And NO I don’t sell the product or benefit from my positive testimonial – except defending a service that has been of great value to my company.
Joseph, I can’t verify who you are so I can’t take you at your word that you don’t work for or have some other interest in Send Out Cards. Your wordage here is just about the same as what they use in their promotional videos. And, I’m not doing a disservice to anybody by reporting what I think and using real facts to do it. I’m sorry they are inconvenient for you. Still — hardly a disservice. I don’t mind spirited disagreement, Joseph, but I do mind being told doing people a disservice by reporting the facts. Since when were facts a disservice?
Keith,
I’m a Real Estate Agent that is thinking about implementing this type of system for marketing to expired listings, my past clients, birthdays, and so on. I’m not real keen on the whole MLM things and don’t really want to be put into that type of situation.
Do you know of a similar service with a powerful contact management system that can do the same thing for less money?
Greg, That’s a great question. I typed in “personalized greeting cards” and got so many results that I’m not sure where to start. It seems that there are many services that can database your contacts and send greeting cards without the MLM Confusion. I need to look closer at it for a while to decide which ones are not rip-offs. Thank you for the question. I’ll do my best to find a good answer.
Keith,
I appreciate your help trust me I’m googling along with you trying to find a reputable similar type option. I’m surprised that Hallmark doesn’t have a similar type system in place…. I’d love to see what you come up with because I need to get started on a system like this because I do see strong benefits for my Niche
Greg Dallaire´s last blog ..Wisconsin Lakefront Property-15559 Maiden Lake Road
OK, I admit I had to stop and ask myself whether I want to engage with such negativity. What they hay! I will never read this post again anyway. As a corporate professional with a Master’s in Business, I am compelled to set the record straight.
First, the obvious. Pyramid schemes are illegal and when found by the FTC shut down immediately. Determining a pyramid scheme is super easy. It involves people asking for money to join a business program, but there is no tangible product or service being transferred. For years most crooks have decided to use the network marketing model for their Pyramid scheme cover. Hence the industry has gained a stigma they’ve never been able to shake.
A few facts about SOC, there were two Eagles as of September 2009, so the first posting is incorrect. The fact that SOC discloses their income figures makes me more comfortable with them. They are not trying to hide anything. I invite you to look at figures from any other legitimate MLM. Take Amway for instance. They have been around for over 50 years and while they’ve create hundreds of millionaires, they have far more distributors that made little or no money. By the way, I assure you if you consider Amway or Mary Kay or Pampered Chef, or several other well known direct sales companies to be scams, then why hasn’t the FTC shut them down? I’ll tell you why. Because the FTC regulates what is legal and what is not and they are legal…legit. You can disagree all day long. That is your given right. But if you are law-abiding, you can’t argue their legitimacy.
Now, lets take a look at your typical corporate structure. Usually a President and CEO at the top, several middle management, and many worker bees at the bottom. Sketch this out geometrically and it is a Pyramid. By your explanation, most of corporate America is a scam.,,ummm. maybe so. Guess who gets 80% of the profits in the corporate pyramid? The guys at the top of the pyramid. Guess who does 80% of the efforts, the guys at the bottom. That is just the way it is. Is it fair? I don’t know. The guys at the top typically put up the most risks and in most cases worked hard to get there. MLM is the same with one major difference—-the people at the bottom can make the same as the people at the top. Is it easy? No, but is it easy to become CEO of a corporation? No. So, really everything is relative. 90% of businesses fail in the first few years, 90% of people who try network marketing businesses fail in the first few years. The big difference in these failures…the traditional businesses lose thousands and even millions. Network Marketers lose a few hundred dollars in most cases. This is another reason for the bad wrap with MLM. You see not as many people have experience failure with traditional business because few have the capital to start that type of business in the first place. Almost everyone can attempt network marketing and no experience is necessary. Unfortunately, for many they don’t succeed and instead of being honest with why they failed, they start telling everyone they got burned in a scam. The sheer numbers tell the tale of why MLM has gained an unfair wrap. Sure there are scams and many are wrapped under an MLM costume. But then again, scams happen in corporate too. Ever hear of Enron?
If I ever do read this post again, I’m sure you smart folks will tell me how wrong I am. Well, the next time I drive to the bank and cash a check that keeps growing every month, I’ll try and figure out what I’m so wrong about.
Did you know at todays savings rate of around 2.5% you need 1.4 million dollars in the bank to generate $3000 of interests a month. It takes many hard working network marketers about 2-3 years to generate that same income every month and it keeps growing. I’m talking residual income. It comes in whether you work or not.
Okay, that is my rave. Guess you’ll do the word count now. While you do, I’ll count my scam money!
If you ever want to debate this with a guy that will invite it. Go to networkmarketingpro.com
Thanks NMPRO (I’m really not surprised). So, you’ve successfully managed to get people to sign up UNDER you so you can then make money. Good for you. Go roll around in your money while all those other folks you scammed struggle. Bravo. BTW MLM schemes register and disclose their figures to the government for a reason. It’s because there are so many frauds out there that people need a little protection. The disclosure to the government is for the protection of potential targets. Of course there’s a sucker born every day. Which you have apparently figured out. Also, if you aren’t EAGLE level you don’t have much money to roll around in anyway.
“Our previous post now ranks #6 in Google for “Sendoutcards.com scam” and has been attracting attention. That’s what happens when you’re on the first page of a reasonably popular term. ” This is the target for all professional blogers
real-estate@agent´s last blog ..can anyone tell me where I can buy a house in Portugal without going through an agent?
I am in awe at the ignorance and legalistic views of the the creator and authors on this site!
I have been researching MLM for years and the inmature and damaging views of this site are AMAZING!
There are many good and reputable MLM around – that does not mean all the people involved are that way, but hay you get that in EVERYTHING! You guys don’t even know what a “pyramid scheme” is! God help us!!! the several people who have actually made sense – you crucify like fly’s….. I suggest that this toxic – misinformed – immature – site be shut down straight away!!!
Robert, You want to shut down a site because you don’t agree? Wow, and you’re calling me ignorant?
Good luck with that!
It’s usually the ignorant ones that yell the loudest and are calling others ignorant. A clear tip-off is multiple grammar and spelling mistakes– accompanied by all caps and multiple exclamation points. Unable to make their points in plain English, they resort to insults, which is about as effective as dumping more salt and pepper on a poorly cooked meal, hoping it will taste better.
Funny to see who is uneducated. The power of the web allows anyone with a voice to state their message, better or worse.
Use BlueSuitCards.com – they send a beautiful, unique, hand-crafted 3 dimensional greeting card to your client list each month. Allows you to stay in your clients face, get more repeat business and more referrals.
No multi-level marketing and no affiliate network.
I am thankful to the friend who introduced me to SOC. I, like him, despise most MLM programs (I wouldn’t waste my time with Amway.) I continue to get positive feedback from those whom I have sent cards via SOC. I understand it could take quite a while to build a business with SOC, but I am in no hurry. I’ll just keep on enjoying sending cards. My sponsor is slowly building a rather prosperous SOC business. He owns a very successful business, hates MLM’s, but sees SOC a terrific tool to communicate with friends and family. The program works. Enjoy it!
I have one question. If you know that there is a 95.5% chance that the person who signs up with SOC will not make it passed the distributor level (which all you recruiters claim will happen in weeks if you sign up) why do you sell it? Is it because you truly think the person you just met can be better than the 95.5% of recruits that the company has already signed? Or is it because all your thinking about is the money that you can make for yourself and if that person fails its his/her problem?
John: Couldn’t have said it better myself. Everyone’s just tripping over themselves to sell more. It’s not the product that matters to them, it’s the sales. People? Nah, just the sales. That’s the sort of behavior MLM fosters.
Dennis, you certainly have a right to your opinion. I am a Realtor and use Send Out Cards for my business. Last year I closed 3 deals I would have never gotten without Send Out Cards. I also listed a 3 million dollar home because the seller called me after seeing one of my cards. So as a realtor tool it is great. As far as the scam comments you should compare the success of people and businesses in the mainsteam before you decide such nonsense. I have trained new realtors for a long time and I can tell you that 85% quit in the first year. Not because the business is bad but because they don’t want to do what it takes. In our area restaraunts are not much more successful. Anyone that has the drive and desire will make money with Send Out Cards.
Many of life’s failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up. –Thomas Edison
I have and am still makeing money with Send Out Cards and will never stop using this great service.
Bill Ryan
You can be a user of Send Out Cards without joining the business. I can tell you numerous stories about how I use it in my RE business that none of the other products can do.
Bill Ryan
Century 21 Shoreland
Nothing we’ve said is nonsense, Bill. They’re called facts. And there’s a reason that MLM’s need to publish these numbers. It’s required by law for all MLM’s to release them. Do you know why? Because MLM’s have a fantastically high fail rate compared to other businesses. The only people defending this scheme are people selling it. I’m frankly not surprised that you do too. Of course you do. And, no, not only will everyone not make money. The vast majority will never see a dime. Those who do make money make a pittance. Real businesses fail because they don’t make enough to sustain a living for the person running them. Nobody is going to retire or make a living out of sendoutcards. At best it’s a hobby, and not a very profitable one and certainly not a business to be compared with hard working people who intend to make a WHOLE living of their efforts at a single business. Get real, and stop shilling for sendoutcards. You haven’t made any money with it so why are you trying to scam other people? Because you want them under you so YOU can make money? Hardly unbiased advice.
Keith, you are doing a terrific job by considerately and thoughtfully rebutting every post that promotes SOC or any other MLM. But, sadly, you are fighting a losing battle.
I’ve watched several MLM pitches purely for the forensic fascination (I would never buy into one). My latest one to watch was for u-first financial, a scam involving paying off a mortgage early by using HELOCs. Like all the others, the prime focus is on selling the system to others. It’s a scam that is actually illegal in some states. At least SOC has a legit product, not that they are pitching it, lol.
I am fascinated with the arguments proffered by the faithful, people who just cannot understand the fallacy of what is presented even though the evidence against is as clear as proving that 2 + 3 = 5. It simply boggles the mind. It’s almost as if the afflicted possesses some abnormal gene that switches off cognitive reasoning.
Even though I still enjoy the theater of watching these presentations from afar, I have given up trying to dissuade the gullible. Each will eventually learn on their own. And, really, the best education is always the personal one.
Hi Dennis,
You sure managed to skip most of my comments. The point I was making is it is a great business tool. I am not silling for anyone and have a real job. Or do you consider Real estate sales a scam too! I have had more closings in my Real Estate business because of Send Out Cards. Is that a good tool if it makes me more money in my “Real Business”? What is your real business? I could make a case for Almighty Dad being a scam.
Bill Ryan
Hi Dennis,
One other thing! I have made money with Send Out Cards and it is easy If you mind is not polluted with the junk you regurgitate.
Bill Ryan
Bill: You drew the comparison between sendoutcards and other business ventures. You said real estate has an 85% drop out rate. If you care to take a moment to comprehend simple english it’s pretty easy to understand. The 15% who do continue with real estate do it as a primary job. Get it? The fail rate for sendoutcards is so massively high that only the top tier (and nobody has made it there) can use it as a primary source of income. Following me? So you can’t compare the success rates of a real business to that of sendoutcards if the standards for success are different. Success in a real business means supporting your family. Success is sendoutcards is essentially not losing any money and perhaps making 500 bucks a year, if anything at all (not even enough for car insurance). Oh, and thanks for commenting. So, now go ahead and tell me how I’m scamming people with Almightydad. Go ahead. Seriously.
Bill: I did a little google search for you (using your phone number to make sure I got the correct Bill Ryan). Turns out you lie. You do sell the scam. You even have a website trying to suck people in. You talk about things like “residual income”. You know very well what that means. That means you encourage people to sign up under you then get other people to sign up under them. You all get “residual income” from people further down the pyramid. I’m tired of people like you lying to people just to make a buck for yourselves. If you’re going to try to make a point the least you should do is disclose what’s in it for you. You’ll notice on this blog I disclose every corporate affiliation I have. You should to the same if you expect to be taken seriously.
Apparently you are still not listening. I told you I sell Send Out Cards and do make good money doing it (a lot of people are). My main business is real estate and I make money with that as well. You don’t know me and should not talk about people taking advantage of anyone if you don’t know better. I explain exactly what Send Out Cards is and what it takes to make money if that is what they are interested in. I sell far more wholesale accounts where people are only using it to make more money in their business. Google Joe Girard if you want to become informed about the value of using greeting cards in your business. I am a very honest person and never would mislead anyone. Send Out Cards is an Inc 500 company and the 3rd largest greeting card company in the world.
Bill
You said you don’t sell for anybody. But, if you’re making money off of someone signing up under you then someone else must be making money for you signing up under them. Effectively that would mean you’re selling for someone. That’s why I thought it was a dishonest statement.
Hi Keith,
I just joined up with SOC and I am doing my research. So I haven’t made a cent, it’s been one day. But my wife has been able to send some personal cards to friends who deserve them. Like her friend who has been unemployed and just landed a teaching job. Like a birthday card to her nephew.
And I sent a customised card to my Mum 2000km away with four photos of her grandson and picked a card that would have meant something to her and typed in a nice message.
You know what? Without SOC they wouldn’t have got those cards. Because we are like a lot of people, have good intentions but don’t follow through. My wife loves this thing.
From the Blue Suit Website mentioned above… “The price for the Business Monthly Greeting Card Service is $5 per card plus postage. All database maintenance, design, production and mailing services are included in the price per card.”
Hey, we chose our card, added our own photos, typed a one off personal message for $1.50, not $5 plus the time to make sure they get my message right. Yes we paid extra, for the commissions, but I’ll back myself that other people think this is a good idea as well.
At least I feel I can approach friends and family with this idea, unlike Amway etc.
By the way, have you had a go at Amway. There is some material you could go to town with, and I would be posting my own Scamway experience.
I’ll be in touch to let you know how it goes.
Cheers Doug
Doug: The idea of sending cards at a reduced price is a good one. That’s not my beef, and I wouldn’t have a problem with people using it simply for that purpose. But, this sort of service is not tupperware or Mary Kay; there is no physical product being sold outside of the main facility where these cards originate. There is no need for it to be an MLM. What is there for a seller to sell other than an opportunity to make money? It would be like if I said I had a candy factory somewhere in North Dakota. Instead of advertising like a normal company (SEO, SEM, Print and other media) I employ an MLM strategy (which is no risk to me but high risk for the person actually doing the marketing). A person who goes door to door or talks up his friends about my candy doesn’t have a physical product to show (all my candy is in the factory waiting to be sent.) They simply say “Hey, if you become my customer then I make money. Then you get someone else to be your customer and you make money.” But, where’s the product? It’s still in the factory; nothing is actually changing hands at the point of sale (it will, but they need to wait for my candy to be sent). Now, that doesn’t mean it’s illegal. In fact, it’s perfectly legal. There IS a product, cards, candy, whatever. It’s a distribution method that is designed to outsource marketing to people with the promise of riches. Unfortunately it’s a method too many people don’t understand. No demand is ever going to pay for the volume of marketing being done. Multi Level Marketing is a run away model that leaves you holding the bag at the end. Again, my candy factory pays zero dollars for marketing because I’ve gotten you to do it for me. You put in the effort with a hope that you’ll make enough to pay for your time and more. What I’m saying is that without a physical product (Like Tupperware or Mary Kay or something) it’s a hard sell. People want to actually see a product. That’s why the fail rate on these sorts of MLM’s is so high. It’s a lot of work for very little reward. The founders of the company know that too.
I’m not going to say that SOC sells an inferior product. I will say though that their costs are low and yours are high (your time is worth more than you might think). If I’m going to send cards, I’d rather just get a card from the store than put up with the hassle of the hard sell. I do get Prepaid Legal and I’ve found that to be very useful for me because it’s a valuable product. I still get the random phone call or e-mail from the person who signed me up. She tries to get me to become a seller. Now, that’s annoying because I’m never going to sell PPL. But, the product is such that I’m willing to put up with that annoyance. It’s a product that I can’t get elsewhere for a reasonable price. I don’t see that trade with cards.
65 comments! And this post ranks #2 on “send out cards scam” on Google.
I think that the bottom line here is that the product does not work for you. That’s okay. There are many of us who are using the product ourselves. And for the record – the 3 folks that I have signed up are NOT distributors. They are just regular customers who also see value in the service.
Again – not into this to retire. Not into this to go up the ladder. I see this as a valuable tool for my own business (as a graphic designer) and if I can make a little bit of extra cash selling it to other folks who also see the value in having cards sent out for them, rather than doing it themselves, then what’s the harm?
Not all of us who are distributors are doing it for the MLM, and that is where your reasoning is flawed…
*puts on fireproof gear in case of flames*
Well, Mona. My reasoning isn’t flawed. I’ve said it several times that I don’t have a problem with the service itself (although it’s of no use to me). I have a problem with the distribution method. People honestly believe they’ll make a business out of this thing, and they just won’t. That’s not flawed reasoning, that’s just facts. Cards? Good idea. Distribution method is what’s flawed.
I do agree with you, BTW, on principle, regarding MLMs. I think in general they are doomed to fail. I don’t, personally, see this as a means to retire. I do think, however, it’s nice every once in a while to get a check in the mail because someone who I sold this system to buys points to buy cards.
However, I realize that I am in the minority when it comes to this. I don’t fall for smokescreens and magic pills.
My wife and I both use this send out cards for our business all the time, we love it. We were appoached about selling the product, or the system if you call it that but it’s not for us. We we involved with Quixtar (back to being Amway now) for over a year and made a little money (best month $1200 bucks) but just don’t want to go down that road again. However I know for a fact we save money and time by using the thing, if you can make money selling it I don’t know.
Thanks for the comment, Matt. And, thank you for contributing with your perspective on it. I’m not particularly against people who use it like they’d use any other consumer product and who don’t see it as a means to a career. It just that I believe there are too many hard salesmen out there who aren’t willing to be completely upfront about how MLMs actually work. But, for the people who know better and can just use it for the actual product? Yeah, I’m cool with that. I don’t want to see people who don’t do due diligence get scammed (even if they sorta deserve it for not reading the fine print). Thanks again Matt for sharing your experience.
I find this site very interesting.
My wife is a distributor with Sendoutcards; however, she did not get into Sendoutcards to make a whole lot of money. I am an insurance agent with a very success property casualty business. In fact, I have over 6 thousand clients I service. I asked my wife if she would mind being a distributor just in case I had some of my clients, as I sent them cards, were interested in Sendoutcards she could get them started using it and we could offset some of our costs of sending cards for my growing property casualty business.
My main reason for becoming a Sendoutcards…
Sendoutcards is a viable product for what I do in my business. It’s convenient, it is very well priced, and it helps me remember client’s birthdays and anniversaries by sending emails reminding me to send a card. These are real cards that go in the mail, not an ecard! Sendoutcards stores my contacts in the system and it allows me to send a card in my own handwriting. I can automate my card sending by creating a template and send it out to a few or hundreds. I can send a card and post date it to go out in the future. I can create a customized card or I can use one of the stock cards and pay less than a dollar plus postage.
When I purchased Sendoutcards, I paid about $300 and my wife paid about $100 for the distributorship part of the package. For my $300 I got a contact manager system, handwriting form that allowed me to create my own handwriting. I filled the form out and sent it to Sendoutcards and Sendoutcards created a font out of my handwriting and added my signatures. Now when I send a card it is in my handwriting.
With my purchase, I got enough credits to purchase about 100 greeting cards. I figured the average card, if I was going to run down to the local Hallmark or grocery store, was going to cost me $2 to $5 plus my time. If I bought 100 of them it would cost me $200 to $500, not much different than the cost of purchasing a Sendoutcards user license. But, after my first initial 100 cards were used up, I would only have to pay 62 to 93 cents a card after that. As the person that signed me up said, “You can’t go to Wal-Mart and get a card for that price!”, which is a true statement because I have tried since I started using Sendoutcards.
I love Sendoutcards and I have referred a few people to my wife and she has signed them up to use the system and they enjoy the product as well as we do. As I mentioned above, my wife did not get involved in Sendoutcards thinking she was going to make a whole bunch of money, just enough to offset the cost of sending a few cards and so far that is exactly what it has done.
From the approach of the person that signed me up for Sendoutcards, I suspect a majority of the distributors and customers that sign up for Sendoutcards are much like my wife and I. We love the product and may casually refer a few people here and there.
I find the approach that was used on me quite refreshing, I was not pitched a “home based business opportunity” that was going to rock my world and set me free for every like most MLMs do. I was presented Sendoutcards as a great keep in touch strategy and maybe my wife and I could refer a few people along the way. For an extra $100 I saw no harm in it.
Over the last 3 years I have been using Sendoutcards, I have run into several users of the system who are much like me and were approached about Sendoutcards much in the same manner. I suspect this is probably why a majority of Sendoutcards distributors are not making money, because they are not getting into Sendoutcards to make a whole lot of money.
I hope my post is taken as an honest post it is and not ripped apart like some of the other posts I have seen just to see the ranking of this site to go up when Send out cards is Googled.
Howard: I don’t rip apart the other posts just to see the ranking go up (even though it helps). I do it because most people who comment didn’t actually listen to what was said in the article. Thank you for your thoughtful assessment of the program. I appreciate the time you took to explain your experience.
A friend of mine wants me to sign up. I found this website thought provoking.
The reason 95% of all people make nothing in Send Out Cards is because 95% of all people who become involved in network marketing are not willing to get the proper trainer or put in the amount of work it takes to become successful. The 5% at the top, got there by working and receiving the proper training. Just like in any other business. I have a friend who became a senior manager in Send Out Cards in less than 60 days. Why? because he worked. If you had it your way, everyone would pay the $398 and received equal compensation regardless of their efforts. Nice plan Obama!!! Send Out Cards is in Inc. Magazines fasting growing companies. You don’t become one of the fastest growing companies in America by scamming people. Watch this video on the TRUTH about network marketing.
Moderator Edit: Jeff did not disclose that he is a heavily involved with sendoutcards himself.
Jeff: That 5% “at the top” you mentioned. Yeah, they still barely made money. And, like I’ve said to almost everybody who is defending the system, the standards for success at sendoutcards are pretty pathetic. In a real business a person has to support his family. “success” at sendoutcards is equivalent to making a few bucks. Therefore, the failure rate at sendoutcards, if you want to actually make a full-time living from it is really almost 100%. It’s not a matter of effort, it’s a matter of getting into a smart business. It would have been much more honest of you to disclose the fact that you have a financial interest in saying sendoutcards is “just like any other business”. I noticed your twitter account is devoted (entirely) to sending out sendoutcards advertisements to all 1500 fans you’ve got.
Lori: If all you want to do is send cards and you do the cost benefit analysis to make sure you won’t lose money then I’d say it an ok system. But, if you want to make money? Forget it. There’s no chance. You’d be better off starting a blog and doing adsense
And that isn’t making me rich, that’s for sure! Thanks for stopping by.
Keith, unlike many on this blog, I did disclose that my wife paid the extra $100 to become a distributor. I also disclosed that I got in to Sendoutcards mainly to use the system for the most part and if I referred a few people (of which I have) it would offset my costs and allow me to send event more of my clients cards and gifts. Of which, it had done.
I have met many Sendoutcards distributors at networking events like BNI and Chamber of Commerce that have join with similar intent. In Fact, my local Chamber in Arizona is a Sendoutcards distributor for the very same reason we are.
There are many of us who joined as a distributor not to make serious income or even part time income, rather, to refer a few to offset our costs.
I suspect that you are talking about apples (people that joined wanting to make part time or full time income) when the majority of the of Sendoutcards distributor base in the disclosure statement are oranges (like me, joined to offset costs and be a casual referrer).
I am very confident there are a large number of distributor (larger than 60%) that are like me and my wife that skew the disclosure statement data that you are trying to base your facts on.
Howard: I’ve never seen an MLM with a high, or even acceptably low, success rate. You might be right about people like yourselves skewing the numbers a bit. But, then again, these stats are pretty typical for MLMs so the same would have to be true for all of them. I’ll just have to disagree about how many people are in it trying to make money. The sad truth is is that there are just too many people in the world thinking they can get something for nothing, or at least very little. MLMs make a convenient case study in that behavior because they are the perfect breeding ground for it. Of course there will always be people like you and me (I’m a member of Pre Paid Legal) who just want the service and not to become sellers. But, having seen the spam business up close, I can tell you there are just sooo many suckers in the world and there are plenty of scammers willing to lie to take advantage of them. Just look at some of the commenters here who don’t seem to grasp the point or who outright lie about who they are and what they want. Some of these folks really give the honest ones a very bad name, and they aren’t making SOC look any better by not being truthful about their affiliations. Just makes them look more shifty. I’d have respect for anybody who says “I sell it, and I want you to buy from me, but this is why I honestly believe it’s a good thing.” People don’t do that. They call names, pretend they’re random passers by (when I know the keywords they came in on). Anyway. I guess you and I just disagree about human nature. Thanks again for visiting and participating, Howard. Have a good week.
Wow, I can’t believe there are 80 comments on this article. Not all MLMs are scams– and even though most people don’t make any money on Send Out Cards, it certainly is okay for folks to do it just because they personally want to buy cards via the service. The folks who are deluded into thinking that they’ll get rich might not realize the uphill battle they face. Let the figures that Send Out Cards themselves released show the reality, which is quite different than the marketing sales pitch.
Some level of puffery is okay. Do you really believe that drinking that particular brand of beer will cause those attractive women to come flocking to you– or if you buy that particular weight loss pill, that magic will happen? To what degree the advertised results, implied or stated with enthusiasm, are different from reality is a judgment call.
Dennis Yu´s last blog ..Google Analytics in Korean– and a scary thought
Like many people, I have tried a few MLM’s. My beef with most MLM’s is the HUGE number of people you must have in your down line in order to make good money. And in order to do so, you have to talk to an massively high number of people.
My good friend got me involved in Send Out Cards and I will not be renewing my distributor status; other than being a sender of cards. I won’t build a business. It’s a nice concept, very convenient, but certainly takes more work than most people are willing to put forth.
What has killed me in the past with MLM’s is what one has to do in order to build a big business–talk to everyone, at all times, under any circumstance. It’s called the “3 foot rule”–anyone within 3 feet of you is a prospect. The lady in front of you at the grocery store, the guy in line at the movie, the young woman pushing her child on the swing at the park. What is absolutely PATHETIC is the less then genuine nature of the conversation. You’re just simply planning your next question or comment to get them involved. So incredibly deceitful. The inappropriate scenarios I have seen my friend talk about SOC would anger you.
If I hear, “Hey, just act on your promptings” one more time, I am going to slam my fingers in the door.
If any of you have a friend in SOC, you probably notice cards seems to solve everything:
-Had a spat with my brother -”send him a card”
-Need to impress a client- “Send them a card”
-Not sure what to buy my daughter for her 25th birthday – “Send her a card”
-I am feeling in the dumps today- “Send yourself a card”
Several years ago I had a friend of mine (who I met through an MLM) over to my office (I own my own firm) On my desk was a photocopy of three checks from just one client I had done work for that totaled $22,500.00–he looked at the checks and simply said, “Wow, I have to be honest with you, I’ve never personally known ANYONE in any of the MLM’s be able to show me THEIR checks that even comes close to that”.
The question i ask MLM’ers is simple. Have them divide their gross income by the number of hours they put into the biz in a year (then add a huge fudge factor for the lie they tell you). 99% of them would be better of flipping burgers.
Steve: Wow! This is by far the most well thought out answer in this chain (including my own). You are absolutely correct. The question is really two fold. How much money is possible to make in an MLM, and what will you need to do, compared to other jobs, to achieve that level? You correctly point out that the system certainly does not sell itself, and in order to have any degree off success the distributor might as well become a huge douche around everybody he knows in order to get it done. Even then the amount of effort and asshattery required is off the charts. I’ve known MLM folks in my day. I can’t even be near them because I know where the conversation is going. Thanks, Steve for the great insight.
Keith,
You’re right; the chicanery that MLM people lower themselves to in order to make great money-or even a paltry amount, is unbelievable. It goes way beyond simply letting someone know the business you’re in—and letting it go. Too often, it’s ALL they talk about. Most of my friends would drop me like a hot potato if I was endlessly blathering on about my firm’s day to day affairs. Who does that?
Survey says, boorish people.
Sadly, every conversation I have with these newly minted SOC people is about SOC. So many SOC people have become indoctrinated that it is almost cult like. If you say anything contrary or questioning to them, it is taken very personally. SOC will have to come out with a line of diapers for these babies.
My friend works harder at SOC than most people do at their jobs. After 6:00. I walk away from my business. Him? He is doing a walk through, or a webinar, or going to a social event intent on “sharing”. I honestly want him to make a mint with SOC; if he does not, at his age, it will be a shame. It will be tough to make up for lost time.
I have nothing against the product; it’s nice to send cards. However, at this point, I could easily see SOC going direct; that is, now that they are pretty established, they really have little need for the unskilled distributors hacking away at it. Anyone with SOC ought to be scared spitless. If you have not made your millions within a year or two, it will be over. Even if SC does not go direct, every person who joins has less of a chance to make much. How daunting is that? The only people I am jealous of is the founder; they will have made a mint off of hapless people.
Last point–have you noticed that just about every person who has taken umbrage has mentioned that they did not get in SOC for the money, yet they bought a distributor package “just in case” they could get a friend or two in the biz? What this really means is that they DO NOT believe this is a great business, and they are willing to con their friends.
Keith,
Did you know that when you get involved in a MLM you actually own your own business?
Anyone know the stats of owning your own business? How many people fail when they own their own business? I am sure the stats are very high for failure. And most people lose money the first few years of owning a business before making a profit. Go around a talk to people who own their own businesses. Like restaurants and insurance companies and Franchises! Why aren’t they scams?
Keith, I am so disappointed in you and this thread. You just don’t like the model and you know what? People do make money in MLM’s. What you fail to realize is that for some people making an extra $500 a month is exactly what they want. It is a second form of income for them. Others, want to retire and make 300K a month. Is that realistic for most people, the answer is no because the numbers say it all. Only a small percentage of people make a large income. The best thing about MLM’s is that YOU are in control of how much money you make.
I hope you go out an companre MLM’s to small businesses…it will really open your eyes how similar they are.
MLM’s are not scams…the people who promote making millions of dollars in MLM’s are the scammers.
Hope this helps people out there decide whether MLM’s are right for them.
I am a Distributor for Send Out Cards and I have a partner. We have a very large client base and a moderately large team and we work it together from home. We have kids and it is such a great fit as we make our own hours. We make money every month on our Clients and also with our team. We spend the time to train everyone to use the system. It is our business and we treat it as such and are very successful..
Hugs,
Kerry xoxo
Thanks,
Kerry Lynn Palmieri
Kerry: Thanks for a thoughtful comment. I disagree that MLM’s are like other business in their failure rate. I owned my own business for several years, and it failed. It failed because my net (not gross) income was only 2.5k per month which was not enough to support my family. In sendoutcards that sort of income would have put me near the top earners. The point is that the standards of success are very different. Quickly looking at the stats, I don’t think I’d consider myself successful at anything other than eagle level (and nobody’s gotten there yet to my knowledge). If I made 500 dollars a month at my business I would have folded in a month. I agree with the previous poster that the amount of effort required to reach success in MLM’s is so ridiculous that it’s better to just it’s confusing why people even bother when they’d have a better chance, and work less, at a brick and mortar business (or online advertising as in my case).
While we disagree, Kerry, I certainly appreciate your comment and your contribution to the discussion.
According to this research – “The failure rate for new businesses seems to be around 70% to 80% in the first year and only about half of those who survive the first year will remain in business the next five years…Of these failed business, only 10% of them close involuntarily due to bankruptcy and the remaining 90% close because the business was not successful, did not provide the level of income desired or was too much work for their efforts.”
This is not research on MLM businesses, rather, traditional business…
It appears, according to this research, that tradition new businesses have similar trends as MLM.
Howard: At the expense of repeating myself for the billionth time, the definition of success at a traditional business and at an MLM are totally different. I closed my previous business because I only netted (not gross) 2.5k per month. If that had been an MLM I would have been considered a massive success. You’ve been drinking the kool-aid. If you expect to convince people that an MLM like sendoutcards is going to provide for their families, you’re fighting an uphill battle because most people (not folks looking to defend the mistake they’ve already made) aren’t that thick.
Keith, I have to admit, this debate is starting to get fun.
Are you saying that your experience in business represents the majority of the 70% to 80% of the new business owners that will fail this year and you are comparing your net $2500 as the standard for a failing business?
Are you also saying someone who works full time at their business verses someone who works at their business part time should be compared as equals when measuring results?
Keith, another question…
Do you believe the value of one person’s time spent doing something is equal to the value of another’s time doing something else.
Example: if I spend 1 hour doing something and I make $10 one time and you spend 1 hours doing something and make $10, but you get a check every month for 2 years does my hour have the same value as yours.
Howard: That’s an economics question. The value of our work is proportional to the needs of the consumer. It has nothing to do with hours put in. So, no, time and value are not related. Economics is a complicated subject, Howard. I don’t know what your argument it. If you’re trying to say that sendoutcards sells itself and you don’t have to put in as much effort to get the same reward, then the facts say otherwise. If you’re trying to make an argument for residual income then you’ve just omitted about a chapter of economics from your question, and it’s misleading as it is. Lets just cut to the chase. You aren’t making a living at sendoutcards yet you’re making an argument for it. Why is that? Why are you defending something that hasn’t actually done anything for you?
Howard: I’ll put this bluntly. I ran a martial arts academy. I worked from 4 pm to 10 pm 5 days a week (I hired someone to do saturday). Stop making arguments that don’t hold water. You haven’t made 2k at sendoutcards in a month so just admit it. The debate isn’t getting too fun, it’s getting tedious because you haven’t looked at the facts. You are not making money — end of argument.
I have tried to be respectful of your view, but as the famous Rambo says, “He drew first blood!”
Keith, it is getting very comical reading your posts. You are arguing with yourself. My last 2 posts had no arguments in them. I was just asked a few simple questions and it is apparent your goal was to turn it into an argument.
The questions I asked were to find out if there is any validity in your quest to prove Sendoutcards or MLM to be scam or if you are one of those internet junkies who build a blog site with nothing better to do with his time, but debate topics that you have no ability to defend except through bigotry and intolerance.
Your argument is based on a disclosure statement you found on an opportunity page on the Send out cards site of which it is apparent you have very little skill to analyze.
You read into the data what you want to feed your bias opinion!
It’s like hearing a rumor that someone is giving away $100.000 to anyone who will jump out of an airplane without a parachute! So, you jump on the phone, create a blog and start telling everyone that whoever is offering the $100,000 is trying to kill everyone he is persuading to jump. But, the information you are missing is the plane is on the ground. You either didn’t take the time to dig deeper or when it is mentioned the plane is on the ground, you are so focused on “everyone is going to die” you are not listening!
Your assumptions based on the Send out cards disclosure statement are naive and irresponsible. It is apparent you either don’t have the skills or common knowledge to do an adequately or honest analysis of the data put in front of you.
Your argument is like saying capitalism in a scam because 1% of the working population makes the majority of all the income in the United States. Therefore, it is a scam (Maybe you are one of the socialist that believes this). The facts are 1% of almost every industry that has a sales force make the majority of the money and if it is part time sales force this is going to be even more magnified!
You keep saying “the facts”. Well, here are the facts based on the disclosure…
95.47% represents the number of distributors and they made an average of $19.08 per month 2008.
2.67% represents the number of Managers and they made an average of $93.36 per month in 2008.
1.71% represents the number of Sr. Managers and they made an average of $543.40 per month in 2008.
0.13% represents the number of Executives and they made an average of $4401.78 per month 2008.
0.02% represents the number of Executives and they made an average of $18,821.30 per month 2008.
69% of all the USA distributors did not make any money in 2008.
Everything else is an assumption!
Here are some of the facts you need to gather to make a fair analysis…
What was the average time spent per distributor?
What are the figures for 2009 and/or 2007?
How many distributors are part time?
How many distributors are full time?
How much is the average distributor spending to promote their business?
Is the income being earned perpetual or earned one time?
What is the retention rate on customers?
One could assume that there is no money in Send out cards, but it would be an assumption on insufficient information.
One could also assume there is money in Send out cards if one does what it takes to get to an Executive. According to the data, the average Executive got there is 20 months and made an average of $4400 a month in 2008. Or find out what it takes to be A Sr. Executive. The average Sr. Executive made $18,800 a month in 2008 with an average time of achieving that rank 21 months. Again, these are assumptions.
There is a good case to be made, just from the posts on this blog, that there is some relevance, at least some distributor didn’t get in Send out cards to make money, rather, they got in to refer people and offset their costs.
You see Keith, there is a lot more to analyzing data than just looking at a disclosure statement and recklessly saying the company is a scam.
It is a lot more credible to say, “From the initial glance at the disclosure it looks like there isn’t much money in Send out cards, but we don’t have enough data to conclude this. Is there anyone out there who is making any money in this deal or has any evidence that it is a viable business?”
By soliciting people, both pro and con, you can get a better feel for what is really going on with Send out cards.
Right now you have a reckless, opinionated blog that looks like the person running it has a bone to pick with Send out cards and MLM in general and comes off as a bigot with no respect for anyone with an opinion other than what mirrors his.
This may be a fact or an assumption…
Keith, you don’t know what the hell you are talking about! Let the readers of this post decide, fact or assumption?
Howard: Don’t you have anything better to do than argue on the internet? You might want to actually look up what bigot means then take a look in the mirror. The difference between my bigotry and yours is that I’m right. I’m intolerant of your position because you’re wrong. People like you try so hard to defend a system which is clearly a scam to anybody who’s on the outside looking in. It’s the distributors like you who are so wrapped up in selling that you can’t take a little criticism. Look at you. You’ve written this huge response that doesn’t really say anything other than that I’m an idiot. Fine, you can do that, but what does it say about you to anybody who comes to read this? It says that you’re really passionate about sendoutcards (despite the fact that you haven’t made money on it) and you’re willing to stoop to calling people names who disagree with you. You’re clearly the genius between us even though you’re wasting your time arguing on the internet while I make money off of you (You probably didn’t know that each comment constitutes new content and google moves me further up the rankings because of it). So, thanks for making me a few bucks today while you continue to make nothing.
this is a pretty deep argument from a shirtless man with minors… i hope those are you kids!
okay seriously, it seems like you are both out to make a buck off of me… Keith by getting ppc $ from google and Howard by signing me up into sendoutcards.
of the two of you, at least Howard is up front with his intentions. Keith, if you would disclose more intentionally how this site profits you and your boys by ripping on other people dreams and aspiration your credibility level would rise to meet your google rankings.
i guess at the end of the day we are all just dreamers… so Howard gets my vote for promoting dreams and getting out and doing something vs sitting back and pulling people down.
as for the odds, Han Solo’s exclamation “never tell me the odds” helped me through 10 years in the advertising business… and i’m sure that advice will help both in your perspective endeavors.
sleep well.
Bill: You seriously don’t know how people make money on the internet? How does CNN dot com make money? Advertising. How does Huffpost make money? Advertising. How do I make money? Advertising (although I don’t make nearly as much). Duh. How do TV shows make money? Advertising. Hardly a scam. I have 350 + articles on this site that have nothing to do with MLM’s. Google adsense is running on every single page. If you didn’t notice that then that’s on you, not me. TV shows don’t “disclose” that they’re advertising because the advertisement are right there every 8 minutes. In fact Adsense even says right on the advertisement “ADVERTISEMENT”. Duh. I’m not just sitting back pulling people down, Bill. I’m sitting here telling other people how they’ll get pulled down by listening to people like Howard (and I guess yourself now that you’ve been sucked in too). Furthermore, this site is a full time job and judging from the fact that people like you keep commenting, I must be providing value (entertainment value at least). If I can persuade just one person to not throw away their money on MLM’s then I’ll have accomplished something.
Let my try it again and see if you delete it again…
“You’re clearly the genius between us even though you’re wasting your time arguing on the internet while I make money off of you (You probably didn’t know that each comment constitutes new content and google moves me further up the rankings because of it). So, thanks for making me a few bucks today while you continue to make nothing.”
You have exposed your true intent with this site. Who is calling a scam a scam?
You make money by creating controversy to move your site in the rankings and then get paid on the google clicks?
You are right. Bigot is not the right word to describe you.
Hypocrite, deception and scam are all words that describe what you are and what you are doing.
Let me help you with these definitions because it is apparent you have a problem with understanding the meaning of words…
Hypocrite – 1.a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. 2.a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.
Deception – 1.the act of deceiving; the state of being deceived. 2.something that deceives or is intended to deceive; fraud; artifice.
Scam – a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, esp. for making a quick profit; swindle.
I wonder how many time I have to keep posting this on your site!
The true scammer is exposed, Keith!
Now we know how you can be a stay home dad and make money!
http://www.keithwilcoxscammer.com I wonder if you have enough interest in your name that I could buy a domain name like this and run it up on google to make enough money that people would buy clicks to advertise on that site? Buy a few adwords like, Keith Wilcox is a scam or maybe buy adwords with almightdad.com
Keith, you little scammer, you!
Think of all the people who have come to this site thinking you were a nice guy trying to rid people of scams and then they find out that you are one of the biggest scammer of all!
Are there any other sites we can go to see where you are getting paid for clicks?
Let’s see how long you will leave this post up or if you will even post it.
Howard: Please, Everybody knows websites make money by advertising. I make money by writing content that is interesting to people. I’m confused as to why you see that as a scam. My advertisements even say “Advertisement” right on them. There’s no deception there. And, why are you getting yourself so bent out of shape? Go ahead and buy my name for a domain if it makes you happy. Spend all that time and money and see where it gets you. You’re passion for sendoutcards is clear. Almost cultish. I spammed your last comment because it was nothing but insults; it was one page of name calling and no information whatsoever. I allowed this comment because I want people to see how utterly irrational you’ve become. Nothing about my site is a scam. I write things I believe in and advertise to cover my costs. That is how the internet works, Howard. The fact that somehow this article has become popular is bonus for me, but I was not expecting it. I want all my articles to be popular of course. That’s the business of writing, Howard.
Good grief, Charlie Brown. This discussion has devolved into a scam.com thread, with both sides arguing apples and oranges, while neither is getting to the heart of the matter.
TO KEITH AND DENNIS: To get your point across to readers who may not understand the issues, may I respectfully suggest that you choose your words and points more clearly. To wit:
1.Do not use the terms ponzi vs. pyramid scheme cavalierly. Both are illegal. MLMs are essentially LEGAL PYRAMID SCHEMES, where a product or service is added to the mix to stay within the law. However, the product is only the means to lure the recruits.
“MLMs are all in the “business opportunity” business, not “pills, potions and lotions.” And all of them sell the same “opportunity”, which is the chance to sell the “opportunity” to others who sell the same opportunity, forever and ever. Amen.”
http://www.falseprofits.com/files/ccd44a7f7b79587cb5b233220fff0850-18.html
2.There is no such thing as a good MLM. They are all the same. Mary Kay, Pampered Chef, Tupperware, Avon, etc. either started as or have become MLMs. Even legitimate companies such as ProActiv and Dove chocolates have jumped on the MLM bandwagon, as the money is so good—for the company, not the “sales force”.
http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2009/11/09/consumers-looking-for-the-good-mlm/
3.You are confusing ancient history, before the advent of, malls, big box stores, and Internet commerce, when people went door to door and sold the product, not the opportunity to sell the product, which followed very quickly. The MLM companies that offer products do not track retail vs. wholesale sales, as that is a dead giveaway. People who exit MLMs have tons of products bursting from their closets. Check eBay or Craig’s List for the deep discounts offered on many MLM products as folks leave and try to just lose their shirts, not their entire wardrobe. The one company that I know of that sells services does not report income earned from selling training aids. And the majority of the “service product purchasers” are also the sales force. Legitimate sales companies do not charge their reps for these materials; while insurance agents and realtors are independent contractors, the companies they work for do not allow unlimited salespeople, as MLMs do. And those folks sell homes or insurance, not the opportunity to sell them, or they would be SOL, as 97-99% of MLM sheeple are.
4.“IBOs” (Independent Business Owners) of MLMs are nothing of the sort. You “own” nothing; most of you “owe” a lot the longer you stay in.
5.To get a look at some real numbers, visit and register at http://www.pinktruth.com/ , so you can read both the front page and the threads. This site is primarily for Mary Kay, although there are some threads about other MLMs. See the Kaybot posts, which are identical to the SOCbot posts here, or the Am/Quixbot posts elsewhere. What you will see there that you won’t see elsewhere is detailed information about the deception, the financial losses, and the relationship damage that occurred to the brave women there that have either emerged from the pink fog or are in the process, and have courageously posted their stories to warn and inform others. Sometimes “cat fights” do break out, even between members, as the emotions run high. But the site owner runs a tight ship, as you will learn if you read the mission statement of the site. If you read through the site, you will be armed with more legitimate talking points to make your case.
6.Finally, as I briefly mentioned on my other post, I do not believe it is okay to simply purchase the product and stay out of the MLM aspect if you have a true sense of the mechanics and unethical, but legal tactics of the MLM model.
http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/MLM_ethics.php
TO THE SOC PEOPLE:
1.Why are you here? If you are vigorously defending SOC, even as just a marketing tool for your “other” business, your transparency is as “telling” as a Poker “tell”. If I purchase a product or service I like, I may inform my friends or even post a review online somewhere, but that’s it. I’ll leave it to the company to market and sell the product, since I am a consumer, not a rep.
2.For those claiming earnings or results: Prove it. Redact your personal info, and post your schedule C. See what CPA’s have to say about MLMs:
http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Discussion:Mary_Kay
http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/tax_study
3.Obfuscation is the hallmark of MLMspeak. Stop making comparisons to Corporate America, franchises, small businesses, Wall Street or the government. It is a specious argument. Just PROVE why the MLM model is good. , where you argue the merits of SOC and other MLMs to your hearts delight. You can even resort to name calling and profanity. It is akin to ultimate wrestling with mud, knives, and guns.
4. Go run along over to scam.com
TO THE UNINFORMED CONSUMER:
http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/
http://www.falseprofits.com/FalseProfitsBlog.html
http://www.vandruff.com/mlm_FAQ.html
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/m/mlm/
http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/category/pyramid-schemes-mlm/
All of these sites contain links to other sites.
FULL DISCLOSURE:
I am not in sales; never have been, never will be. I am simply a consumer who, despite my higher education, was shocked to learn the truth about the horrible and harmful practices of MLMs. My lack of experience in sales or MLMs does not negate my post: I do not have to smash my hand with a hammer or drink a glass of bleach to learn that it would be harmful to do so. While I was composing this post, a few more posters have shown up, regurgitating the same, angry, tired old arguments. This is a blog, not a newspaper. And even newspapers have op-ed pieces. Keep on keepin’ on, Keith. I wonder if any of the MLMs sell anger management tapes or tranquilizers? Or does the truth simply hurt?…
Doo Dilly– or whatever your name is. I think you have one of the most educated posts I’ve seen on the topic of MLM– well-researched with good links!
Doo Dilly… happy that someone saw the light! Well done!!
If you look for the negatives, thats what you’ll find.
The government and every business on the planet is in the form of a PYRAMID. Wake up people and do some more research. MLM is the best business model today.
SendOutCards is an amazing opportunity, service and company. All the bad information you get is from those that fail and blame everyone and everything but them self.
All MLM (network marketing) opportunities have there ups and downs and that why it is important to do your home work and talk to the people that are building a successful business. If you think its going to happen over night… continue going to your JOB if your willing to learn and be consistent, have patience and set a 18mth – 2 yr plan…you can be successful in MLM with the right company product and service…..and of course team.
My 2¢
Its not ecards though. These are actual greeting cards that arrive in your mailbox. I use them all the time. SEND OUT CARDS is the BEST system out there.
Keith,
I love your line a few posts back, “Don’t you have anything better to do than argue on the internet?”
Are you freakin’ kidding me?
It’s all you do!
Seriously, you sound like some angry jerk who joined a few mlm’s in the past, sat around doing nothing for a couple months, maybe approached a few family members, failed miserably, and quit.
If you had even a small inkling of positive energy in your mirky little soul, you’d see that success in mlm doesn’t matter at all what company you’re with, who your sponsor is, or any of that.
It is the sole responsibilty of the person involved. If they sit around complaining and whining that their company isn’t working, they won’t make a penny.
If they get off their ass and make it happen for themselves, they have no choice but to be successful.
Send Out Cards is not a scam at all, not in any way.
There are many, many people making comfortable livings with it. But it’s not because Send Out Cards works. It’s because they made it happen for themselves.
They didn’t have a ridiculous, negative outlook on the whole thing, and THANK GOD, they didn’t listen to idiots like you.
Thanks for giving me a good laugh this morning.
Mike: I’ve never wanted to, tried to or been involved with selling anything from an MLM. It’s because I’m not an idiot that I haven’t. Unlike you, my work actually makes money.
So, all people in MLM opportunities are idiots? I know for a fact that’s not true. I know hundreds of successful and very intelligent people who are in this very MLM opportunity.
And how in the world do you know whether or not I make any money?
Are you kidding me?
You’re a negative-minded, cynical, ignorant twit, dude.
Why in the hell is there a halo over the title of your blog? Because you home-school your kids and brew tea? Get real with yourself.
How much money do you really make from your little HOP affiliate program?
wow…
Hey, you know what would be frickin’ hilarious?
Put all this negative, goofy, put-everyone-else-down, bad-mouthing energy of yours into actually succeeding in an MLM, and I guarantee you’d be successful.
That would shut you up.
SendOut Cards is NOT A SCAM… If you have passion for what you do you can make it in any MLM business . When people have negative thoughts negative stuff happens. Thats where the whole Law of Attraction comes into play. I was a SendOut Cards user before becoming a distributor. There is no other business that I rather do. People love getting cards and I love sending a card for no reason.
Success takes patience and tenasity. Sendout Cards is soo awesome because it is cost effective.. You can send a real card with a real stamp without ever leaving your home. No pricy cards or waiting in line at the post office.
Mike: The halo in almightydad is a play on the word almighty. But, hey, thats pretty witty of you. You’re hilarious and that was an awesome put down. pat yourself on the back for thinking of something so awesomely scathing. I have no response to it because it’s so great. You should make a living out of thinking of really insightful zingers like that.
Mike: why would I want to try succeeding at an MLM again? You’ll have to work out how that math works in my favor. I know you’re not making money because you haven’t made eagle level. Even eagle level isn’t that impressive. Anything else is sorta sad. That’s how I know.
Ya know what, dude?
This is pathetic that I’ve spent this much time on this.
The world is full of ignorant folks such as yourself who will just never get it.
There ARE 2 Eagles in Send Out Cards that I know of, and one of them makes around $180,000.00 a month the last I heard and that was maybe a couple of months ago.
That’s not impressive, huh? Must not compare to your HOP affiliate commissions.
And by the way, every person I know in Send Out Cards that is making a good living with it, including myself, is below the Eagle level.
Seriously, man, do you ever say anything at all that is based on something you actually KNOW?!
Go brew some tea, and write some posts somewhere else that make some sense.
Mike: look at the numbers. they speak for themselves. You don’t know anybody making 180k a month on sendout cards. HA! Why don’t you prove how much you make with sendoutcards by posting proof. When you do that then I’ll shut up.
You’re right. I don’t personally know Jordan Adler. But he really does make that much. Sorry.
I don’t share how much money I make, personally. I think it’s tacky.
And what numbers are you talking about?
The ones that say the most money is made by people at higher levels?
And your point is what, exactly? Name one single company in existence in which people in higher positions don’t make more than people just starting out.
The CEO of HOP makes way more money than you do! Must be a scam! There are probably hundreds of people within the company making far less than him. SCAM!!! All these people were hired and are paid to do one thing: MAKE MONEY for the people at the top! They make a small portion, he gets filthy stinkin’ rich! SCAM!
The dish washer at Olive Garden makes crap, but works his butt off. The waitress makes more than him, SCAM! The Manager makes more, SCAM. The Regional Manager Makes Even More! SCAM!!!! The CEO of Darden Restaurants is rich beyond measure, UNHOLY SCAM!!!!
You know why the vast majority of people in MLM’s or any other company on the face of the earth make almost nothing and give up and die broke?
Most of the time it’s because they’re lazy, and alot of the time, just plain stupid like you. They join thinking they’re going to get rich doing NOTHING. So they do nothing, make nothing, and quit.
This, apparently, is how you think things should work. But this is ridicuolus. Go get a job at the Olive Garden, sit around doing nothing, don’t even show up most days and then wonder why you got fired! Get pissed and call Olive Garden a scam, because IT didn’t make you any money.
Do you even realize how freakin’ stupid that is?
This is what your “NUMBERS” reflect. The VAST majority of people who don’t get it that they have to actually work at it like it’s a business.
It’s that simple, pal.
Why don’t you try something. Find a Send Out Cards Distributor and ask them to show you how it works.
I guarantee you that they might mention the business side of it, but ABSOLUTELY will not try to pressure you into it. We have killer products, plain and simple. When people start using them they realize that they can really stand behind them and start to sell them.
Just like you and HOP, only after a while we start making way more than you can ever hope for with a simple affiliate program, and it’s residual income that lasts a long time and it keeps growing.
It’s that simple.
Mike: Sorry, I didn’t finish reading your little rant here. I’ll just say that the numbers I’m referring to are the ones I posted in the article. They aren’t comparable to any other business model. The fail rate at MLMs is much higher than any other business. You really can’t deny it (but I guess you can try). I don’t know why you’re on this HOP thing so much. You must not understand how affiliate marketing works.
This really isn’t worth my time.
I’m done.
Way to make a good counter-argument, Mike. You called Keith an angry jerk, said he had a mirky little soul, called him an idiot, a negative-minded, cynical, ignorant twit, and ignorant, to name a few. And you think it’s tacky to post your income, but your fearless leader does:
http://www.soccoach.com/members/step-2/jordansmessages/19.htm
Notice how Mike not only could not or chose not to refute my post; he obfuscated and used other non applicable business comparisons, again proving my point.
Virtually every rabid MLMer sounds the same. Buh-bye, Mike. Don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya… spend your time instead “working your business”…
Doo Dilly– well put. The trouble with forums or the web in general is that anyone can come in and post idiotic remarks that have nothing to do with the original content, nor provide useful material for the readers here.
Based on the criteria of whether his posts were furthering the discussion versus just name-calling, it would seem that Mike fails here. I’d encourage anyone who wants to participate in this forum to check their egos at the door and discuss the facts at hand. The previous commenters have already made a number of salient points, so no need to rehash the “all MLMs are scams or not” positions– that is not what this community is about.
Hi:
This will probably never be published on this website, but here it goes:
It’s absolutely amazing to us how people blame everything else in their lives for their non success except themselves. They blame the industry, the company, their mom, or their dad. They think it’s easier to do that than to take 100% responsibility for their circumstances and actually, it isn’t. Then there are the real jokers like the guy who runs this website that makes a whole business out of all the losers coming to this website so they can blame everything and everyone except themselves for their lack of success.
My wife and I were in seven different network marketing companies before Send Out Cards and never made a penny. Why, BECAUSE WE DIDN’T WORK! When we joined Send Out Cards I had just been fired from a company that I had worked at for fourteen years. After building their business from $650,000 to over 300 million, as their National Sales Manager, they fired me and gave their son my job, who by the way, I trained for two years. This was the fourth time I had been fired in my 40 year career and it hurt the worst because I was making $250,000 year, That brings me to who makes all the money. While me and the three other top people in the company were making a minimum of $250,000, or more, the people that worked in our plant were making between $6 and $7 per hour. Quite a difference to say the least. So, to recap, out of a company with 1,500 employees, only four were making the big money. The points is, a few people at the top making big money and the rest not making much is not unique to Network Marketing.
With all that said, has the owner of this website ever been to a Send Out Cards Treat’em Right Seminar, or a convention? Has he sent out any cards, we have sent out over 12,000 in five years and actually had people call us up crying they were so blown away? Has the owner of this website ever gone into network marketing full time and really worked it? Has he ever had a down line of over 2,000 distributors and 5,000 customers? If he had, he would understand that very few people go after their dream and to us, that’s a good thing. If all 100,000 distributors in Send Out Cards were working, this wouldn’t be an opportunity. By the way, our last company had almost three million distributors and it still had plenty of room to grow.
Quit crying and get off your you know what and go out and make a difference, any difference. Circumstances don’t make the person, they reveal him to himself. Taking responsibility is your ability to respond to the things that happen to you in life. Stop trashing any network marketing company until you have been fired four time over a forty year career and find that network marketing is the only place to have your own business without handing out three, or four hundred thousand dollars for a franchise that you will have to be married to, to succeed. The fact is, Network Marketing is the fairest, fastest, and economical way to get rich, if you want to work. Work is not spending one hour a day sending out emails, or learning the website. Work is honing your skills and putting in some serious time and working all the time you are suppose to be working. For instance, I called a prospect and told him I was following up and he said, “Your lucky you called today, I’m already to join up. What he didn’t know is, that was the 60th call I had made that day. That’s why it’s called Network Marketing and not, Notwork Marketing.
To wind it up, Send Out Cards to us is the best product and service in the Network Marketing industry on the face of the planet. We can honestly say we would not be in Network Marketing if it wasn’t for this great company. One more thing, we know Kody Bateman, or founder and CEO personally and he had more integrity in his little finger than all the CEO’s I worked for collectively had in their whole body.
All the best,
Phil & Sheila
Phil: clearly I’m making a difference if I’m getting these sorts of diatribes from you people. Kool aid taste good?
I joinder SOC last year as a retail user for $99. I just wanted to get used to it, try it out, play with it, and see what I thought before taking the next step. It took me months to get around to actually using it, but when I did, OH BOY! I think this is the greatest tool I’ve ever seen. There are over 20,000 cards to choose from on the website, but it’s organized nicely in subcategories and it’s never taken me longer than 5 minutes to find the perfect card. You can send it as a post card, a bi-fold or a tri-fold, with or without your own photos downloaded from your computer, with or without your own custom handwriting font. You write your own sentiment in the card so you can really personalize it. The typical bi-fold card without a custom photo costs either $0.98 plus postage at the retail level of $0.64 at the wholesale or distributor level. You can attach a gift, a gift card, or a book, or just send the card. You get to add the person and their data to your address book in your account, and the account will even remind you when it’s time to send that person a birthday card, etc. It’s phenomenal! I upgraded to distributor because I felt that if I was going to be constantly answering the question “Hey, that’s so cool, how did you DO that?” I might as well be selling it.
If MLM is such a heinous crime, why did David Bach list it as one of 4 primary ways to boost your income in his book “Start Late, Finish Rich”? He too admits to having spent years as a basher of MLM – until Warren Buffet bought a MLM company and added it to Berkshire Hathaway’s portfolio. And if you don’t know who/what David Bach, Warren Buffet, and Berkshire Hathaway are, may I suggest you go do some more homework and reading before spouting off about things you don’t understand?
Linda: Did you just try to put David Bach and Warren Buffet at the same level? Nice. And you’re telling me I don’t understand.
Goodness but you are indeed being deliberately stubborn and obtuse! No I most certainly did not. I merely said that if you don’t know who they are, do some research. MLM is not the root of all evil. Schemes that make you invest large sums of money up front, for a basement full of merchandise you will never sell, are scams. SOC is a real service with a quality product that is inexpensive for the consumer and the distributor. You know what? Why don’t you try it out? Any distributor will give you an opportunity to click on their banner at the top of their own page and send up to 3 bi-fold cards at their expense, not yours, and if you don’t like what you see after that, then nobody can help you. I’ll give you my banner address if you’d like to try it out. Just send me an e-mail.
Linda: Thanks but no thanks.
Defenders give up already! A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.
There is an agenda of this site…Bash MLM at all costs. Seems like someone embraces negative debate way too much. Could lead to a heart attack!
Skepticism is very healthy, but cynicism is can be described as a type of “hate group.”
No doubt, I’ll get some well thought out response, because that is what cynical people do…poke holes in any and everything that doesn’t agree with their view.
I’ll close with this “In seeking happiness for others, you find it for yourself.” I’m not sure this type of site makes very many people happy. Maybe you could find some things you like and start a site about them. What a concept!
Let the poking begin!
Smile: There are two articles about MLM’s on this site. 360 others. Yeah, this site is all about bashing MLM’s. You got me.
Keith,
You have made your stance clear on MLMs and in terms of the average or typical individual moving into this business model, you are correct; the vast majority will fail. Now, that doesn’t make this particular business or product worthless though (and no, before you start shouting, I’m not in MLM and NOT in SOC)..
Here’s the point you are missing..(and a few of your informed readers).
Send out cards offers a real product (not an e-card) delivered on demand at a good price (less than $1 per card I think). As a customer management model (i.e. for a business, charity or entrepreneur looking to simplify, personalize and organize a way to keep in contact with new customers or list subscribers, send out cards is a valuable business tool). No value in the product? I guess you’ve never heard of direct mail?
Happy MLM bashing!
Neil Ashworth
Neil: there’s no need for SOC to be an MLM. Why is it set up like that? Perhaps because it’s the “opportunity” being sold, not the actual product. It’s funny how many of you have just totally bought into MLMs without thinking even once what’s the purpose of doing it that way. It’s opportunity, man!
Keith,
Thanks for the reply. Of course people buy into the opportunity. You’re correct, SOC doesn’t need to be an MLM but choses that particular marketing and distribution model (it suits their needs). This doesn’t make it an illegal or unprofitable business model for those who chose to build a home business with it though – it really doesn’t.
You are missing what most people miss about the business model. MLM companies open their doors to anyone and everyone who wants to work from home/start a business. The vast majority of these people have little or no idea of how to work for themselves, how to time manage, market, maintain cashflow in order to sustain advertising and simply hit the wall within 1-2 years. The companies are at fault in terms of how they teach the traditional network marketing model as are many distributors who team build also (friends and family crap) and until you (obviously not you Keith) understand business, acquire a little marketing knowledge and understand that any business is built over time then you will not be successful.
The model will always mean that fewer people reach the higher levels of income because it takes time and business knowledge to get where you want to go. It doesn’t make it a scam and I’ve not bought into it, I’m simply pointing to how business is done. Slowly, with effort, with cashflow and good marketing skills, over time.
I know you don’t like the real world comparisons but look at it this way…
If you buy a franchise, you buy the rights to sell a brand, with advertising support and a degree of training from the company in your initial investment.
Okay, so then you have to learn the business; how to sell coffee, sandwiches, cold showers on the move for flee ridden labradors etc..
You invest time, effort and funds into a model which sees you paying staff from your profits, while passing up an annual license fee to the franchise company. If your business profits, so will you and the company who’s brand you have used and who you have most likely paid several thousand dollars for.
If it fails (as many do) then you have nothing left at the end to show but debt, a few redundant staff and a bad taste from your business exploits.
MLM is no different to Starbucks or McDonalds, only no staff, less investment and yet we are all happy to see our friends and family invest 100,000 or more into a Starbucks on Main Street.
I don’t know a single person who has tried sending cards with Send Out Cards who came away disappointed although I know many who are frustrated trying to build a SOC business. The number one obstacle in people’s way is fear–fear of presenting the SOC opportunity for fear of failing. Read “Go For No” by Richard Fenton and Andrea Waltz (no affiliation) if you want to overcome that fear.
P.S. This has been an entertaining and informative thread no matter whose side you’re on.
Roland´s last blog ..No Excuse NOT to Send a Mother’s Day Card
I love Send Out Cards! It has helped me in my business and personal relationships. It is so easy when I am travelling to send high quality cards to the people I care about.
I love the campaign feature, this has made me lots of money and saved me time!
Thanks!
Yawn… MLMers are all the same, no matter the company. Same circus, different clowns. Same clowns, different circus. Same dog, different fleas… well, you get the idea.
I won’t waste my time dissecting the recent comments, as anyone who is not in MLM and has checked out my aforementioned links already understands the dishonorable ways of the wacky world of MLM.
This particular article is the most telling:
http://www.falseprofits.com/files/0e84fa53401abaf0461335365f0641a4-21.html
But if you really want a sure fire way to make money and stay off the hamster wheel, try this:
http://www.buymystupidebook.com/
Keith,
There is a great book called “The Richest Man in Babylon,” and it teaches lessons about how to become and stay wealthy. It uses parable type stories to share wealth lessons, and it’s a legendary book. One of the most important lessons in the book is about gravitas. If someone has gravitas, they posses the expertise to intelligently (and when I say intelligently I’m not speaking about IQ, but about possessing personal experience regarding a subject) counsel someone in a subject area and give sound advice based on their personal experience.
I don’t know you personally, but in all of your posts, you haven’t said anything about your credentials and experience in multi-level marketing. I have been reading diligently and I was certain at some point you would divulge this information, but I was wrong as you have said nothing to this.
So my question to you is, “What makes you an MLM expert? And why should anyone value your counsel on this subject matter?” And when you answer me, please don’t quote some article, Send Out Cards earning statistics, or anything from a website you found online. I want to know about your personal expertise. Why should anyone value your opinion on the subject of Send Out Cards and MLM’s.
I’m a single guy, with no children. So, if I read some articles in “Dad Today” and did some research online about being a stay at home father. Would that make me an expert on being a dad even though I don’t have any children? Absolutely not. I would lack the gravitas, and the personal experience to intelligently counsel anyone on being a stay at home father, because as I’m sure you can attest. There is a lot more to being a stay at home dad, than you can learn from a website, or spread sheet of facts.
I don’t know, what I don’t know. I haven’t done it. Never changed a diaper, never grounded anyone. Never woke anyone up for school, or made breakfast and got someone dressed. Never done any of it. I could read articles and books and quote facts all day long about being a father and you would be an absolute fool if you listened to anything I told you; because I lack the personal experience and I’m not an expert.
I’m afraid to say, that while you speak very passionately against Send Out Cards and MLM’s in general, and have mucho mucho disdain, you lack the fundamental understanding of the intricacies of the business model. And since you don’t have any experience in this business (Send Out Cards), you are unqualified to castigate it. Just as I cannot set up a blog and talk about how awful it is to be a stay at home dad when I’ve never done it myself. I would have no credibility, and you don’t have any credibility either.
I can’t learn how to change a diaper researching online and quoting articles no more than you can understand how to operate a business you have never done. You have changed more diapers, gone school shopping, lead car pools, teacher conferences, and grounded individuals. And I have had more Send Out Cards business presentations, gift account walk throughs, setting up new card senders, and training new distributors than you have. I would strenuously recommend that you stay in your lane. I won’t tell you how to be a stay at home dad, and you don’t tell me that a business that brings me great joy and extra money is a scam. I send my mother cards just to tell her that I love her. And the response I get from those cards would be worth all the money I have. I never used to send cards. Ever! Now, I send over 100 cards a month and I get more joy out of sending them, than the recipients get from receiving them. It’s awesome to be sitting in my bed, going through my family pictures and finding that perfect picture of my bro and sis. Then putting it in a card, writing something nice and sending it to them. You can’t put a price tag on that. It’s something that can’t be measured. There are lots of people in SOC’s that sign up and just use it b/c they love to send the cards. The company stats you keep quoting don’t account for that. Many of the people in SOC are very successful business people that make a good living at their jobs and businesses, so it’s of no consequence that they aren’t doing anything with their SOC business…well except sending out cards to their friends and family.
You see Keith, as I said earlier, you have never done this business, so you don’t understand that it’s not just about how much money you make. This is a lesson that I hope you are teaching to your children. Then again, don’t take my advice b/c I have never raised children, but nonetheless. Some things just can’t be measured and are worth it, regardless of the money you make.
I was a successful business to business salesman for 8 years. Worked for 2 Fortune 500 companies and quickly rose up the ranks. Eventually got into pharmaceutical/medical sales and within 2 years was completely burned out. So, I decided to quit my job (with no back up plan) and made a career change. Got into entertainment and I have been doing that for the past 5 years. I work with some of the biggest names in Hollywood and the NBA. Got to this point by working hard and hustling my arse off. That’s the only way you can get anywhere.
As a B2B sales rep, I’ve seen companies start up. Burn through $2-$3 million, then close their doors. Seen this many, many times. It’s tough as hell to start up and business and survive for 5 years. Really tough. You have had a business that couldn’t survive, so you understand how hard it is. With that being said, the MLM model, when operated by a legitimate company, with conservative management. Can be very successful.
Amway, Tupperware, Mary Kay, Avon, Herbalife, Pleasure Parties, Pampered Chef, Pre-Paid Legal, etc, etc, etc have been around for years-Amway 60 years. Amway and Mary Kay have 2 of the largest sales forces with each having millions of sales reps all over the world. These are very, very successful companies which are well respected in the business community.
I can guarantee you that the financial companies, hedge funds, mutual funds, who were cooking their books for 20 years and stealing people’s hard earned money, have done way more damage than any MLM could ever do. Bernie Madoff stole upwards of $50 billion, mostly from charitable organizations which are all now pretty much defunct. Goldman Sacs, the Bond Rating agencies, Lehman Brothers, AIG, and others have perpetrated the real scam–and you should be writing about them.
They were selling securities that they knew, or should have known, were bad paper. And gladly took people’s life savings, only to receive a get out of jail free card with the massive $800 billion bailout at the end of the Bush Administration, and then a $700 billion bailout at the genesis of Obama’s term. These crooks are the real scammers. If you want to direct your energy to expose fraud and scams. Put your excellent blogging skills to work on these guys. The light is a great sanitizer so expose them.
As for Send Out Cards. There is a saying, “You never can get something for nothing.” And this holds true in all businesses. Any business. Whether you spent $400 to start or $4 million. If you sign up for Send Out Cards or any other MLM for that matter, and then you don’t do anything to build and grow your business. You will not make any money. It’s plain and simple. There isn’t a business in existence that can survive without customers, and efforts to sell the products or services. SOC’s has 2 products: Greeting Cards & Distributorships. Just like other companies, it cannot survive if those 2 products don’t move off the shelves. MLM’s are the product of the American capitalist system, which is the greatest economic system in the world. There are very, very few countries that you can be poor and rise up into the middle or upper class. I’m not saying MLM’s are the only way to do that, but it gives anyone a low, low cost vehicle to try and improve their situation.
Believe it or not, just a extra couple hundred dollars a month, could help millions of people avoid bankruptcy or financial ruin. And SOC isn’t meant to be started as a full time job. It’s a business that people do on the side to earn extra money. If they bust their tail and build it to a full time income. Great. If not, then they get from it, whatever they put into it. This is an opportunity that anyone can do. It costs about as much as a good dinner to start, and you have the ability to resell amazing products that everyone that has every seen them, loves…
I have been a distributor in SOC since Jan 2010. I have already received 5 checks and I have 1 more coming in a few weeks. I’m working the business and selling the products. That’s the only way you can make money. You have to work. The reason the vast majority of people in general, not just in SOC, don’t make much money is because they are not willing to do what it takes.
I signed up a new customer today, and I’m signing up another distributor tomorrow night. I even have 1 of my distributors, who has already signed up a distributor. I’m working my business in my spare time and making some extra money. Most people doing something on the side, don’t rely on that business to support their family. I have a full time job as a manager for a well known celebrity and I’m a free lance producer in television and film. So these greeting cards are amazing tools for my full time operations. And I would use them regardless of working it as a business. And just b/c you can’t support your family doing something, doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing it. And since you love facts, you stated that there are no Eagles in SOC. And this is incorrect. There are 2 Eagles in SOC’s, but since you are not in the business and you don’t understand how any of this actually works. You would not know that.
I have nothing against you, and I wish you and your family well. I just hope you put your efforts into something that you actually have personal experience in, and that you can intelligently discuss.
All the best,
Aston
Aston: You’re a diligent reader of ALL my MLM related posts? What? All two of them? You mean the two I didn’t write, but were written as guest posts by someone who owns a successful business and has two degrees from the London School of Economics (economics and finance for your information)? Are those the two you’ve diligently read? Because this is a parenting blog and I have plenty of experience in that subject if that’s what you’re talking about — the 360 posts I wrote on parenting. But, I guess you didn’t diligently read those because if you had you might know this blog isn’t about MLM’s, just two posts are — and a business expert actually wrote them.
Keith,
Thank you for the very informative response, but you still have not answered my questions. So, I’ll give them to you again: What makes you an MLM expert? And why should anyone value your counsel on this subject matter?”
Feel free to have your “guest blogger with 2 degrees from the London School of Economics” answer them if it’s more appropriate.
Thanks,
Aston
Keith,
I have a very, very important principle that I live by. I learned it from my experiences in college, being in the corporate/entertainment field for many years, from business mentors, and from reading many books (The Richest Man in Babylon being one of them).
And my personal experiences have proven this principle to be worth it’s weight in gold, many times over. I never, never, never, ever accept advice or give credibility to anyone who pretends to be an expert in something, but does not have any personal experience actually doing it. This is why I asked you the 2 questions, which you (or your unnamed guest blogger) still have not answered. It’s impossible to gain the level of expertise in something that you have never actually done. It’s impossible.
This is why when you go to get a job you have to put together a resume and prove that you have direct experience in the field you are applying for. Without this experience, you are not qualified for the job (generally speaking). Companies apply this standard for good reason. And that is because it’s important that you understand something before you can competently perform the duties necessary to get the job done right. The same standard applies here.
Unlike all the other posts on this thread, it would not be fair for me to comment on the substance of your posts, because it’s not a fair fight. You have no experience in Send Out Cards or MLM’s and I do. I’m sticking to exposing you as an unqualified advisor and someone who give people terrible advice. You say that the vast majority of people in SOC never make money and quote statistics from the company. Yes, those statistics from the company are correct, but it only proves that SOC is no different than society in general. Send Out Cards is not the only place in the country where people fail to earn a lot of money. Failure is just a part of society, and a part of life.
Did you know that there are millions of people in the U.S. that work their entire lives. Forty plus years, and retire dead broke? These are people working full time, and the vast majority of people in SOC or MLM’s only work it part time as a hobby. 1/3 of all the income earned in this country, comes from 6% of the population. So proportionally, all of the wealth is concentrated at the top. That’s just the natural order of economics and the way our system works. Keith, most people don’t make much money, and that’s how it is.
The truth is, you are not qualified to talk about Send Out Cards or MLM’s because you have no experience working the business. And to the best of my knowledge, you have never actually seen one of the cards, or even sent a card using the online system. How can you speak so passionately about something you have never seen or used? I’m trying to figure out why you have posted so much about a company you have no experience with.
The bottom line is, you are not qualified to give anyone, any advice about anything outside of being a good parent. Which from reading your blogs, I’m pretty confident that you are an expert at that. And if someone is intelligent (and I don’t mean IQ), they will NOT accept your “advice and counsel” as the gospel, but they would seek out someone with actual experience using Send Out Cards, and who has been working the business. Or at the very least, seen the cards and used the system once.
You (or your unnamed guest blogger) are still free answer my questions, but I don’t think you will because it will prove to everyone that reads this thread that you simply don’t have the credibility, you are NOT an expert in Send Out Cards and MLM’s, and you are not qualified to talk about it. Please prove me wrong.
All the best,
Aston
aston: You aren’t listening. I didn’t write the post. An actual expert wrote them. Why don’t you click on his link and visit his website. While your at it try learning a little from him. He’s more qualified and has more experience with MLMs than anybody you know. Besides, even if I did write those posts I’d be qualified to say it’s crap. I don’t need to do drugs to say they’re bad, right? You need to stop talking and start listening. I urge you to look at the name and profile of the person who wrote the article and stop repeating the same tripe as yesterday AFTER I already told you I didn’t write it — I hosted it (and I absolutely agree with it).
Aston: I’m as much as expert on this topic as you, Aston. I’m an expert who doesn’t need to actually get run over by a car to know I don’t want to be run over by a car. Jeesh. Go click on Dennis’ link and find out about him yourself. I’m not going to hold your hand.
You cry that you didn’t write the article, ok that’s cool. But you responded 50 times to other posts, and this is your blog so not sure why you cannot answer 2 simple little questions.
I have major deals to finish up, so I have to dedicate all my time right now on wrapping up 8 months of hard work. I cannot afford to waste anymore time with someone who hides behind the skirt of his friend that wrote an article on his blog. When you’re ready to leg go of your wife’s apron strings and answer my simple questions we can finish our conversation. Until then, I wish you and your family all the very best.
Aston
Aston: I’m not crying about anything. I’m stating a fact which you’re not listening to. I also said I’m perfectly qualified to comment on MLMs because i don’t need to be a drug addict to know I don’t like drugs. Remember that? Probably not since say what’s convenient for you and forget the rest.
Hey guys,
I came across this post and was shocked to see the bullcrap that keith and Dennis yu are exposing to drive traffic back to Yu’s website.
Obviously its pretty clever because the majority of people in SOC are professionals who use it as a follow up tool and to build relationships.
Now this post is completely off, and the claims are incorrect. Although there are a few EAGLES in SOC and they are doing very well.
Queef over here thinks he’s really mr.almighty because it took the snapshot from the INCOME DISCLOSURE PDF and used it against everyone.
Of course not everyone makes money in mlm, and if it were a scheme the SEC would have shut it down a long time ago.
Look around Queef, you have AMWAY running full TV ads and doing 9billion a year in sales “OH YEAH SUCH A SCHEME”..
Dennis Yu is an idiot, I was a client of his and he didn’t come through at all with his techniques and information.
I happen to be reviewing his site to leave a comment about what I had experienced and he obviously monitors his posts for that specific reason.
Keith (Queef) is just another guy JV partner of Dennis who has a older domain and dennis didnt want to really rank his own domain because he doesnt know how.
SOC is a great company, I use it for my legal firm where we get clients off of RipoffReport and other scam driven sites.
Keith has NO CLUE what he is talking about at ALL… Honestly the guy doesn’t know anything about SOC or MLM.
A scheme is where money is flowing without products, like cash gifting. There is a product and service being traded here.
You pay to join the company, your buying a membership just like your going to the gym retards, costco…
Next, the lady above that mentioned about HALLMARK, you can not customize and add photoshopped images onto pre-printed hallmark cards.
They are cheaper than hallmark an average $1.50 to send out card including postage.
Its disgusting to see blogs like this of people taking advantage of the SERPS (Search Engines) to talk incorrectly about a company, just to benefit there friends “local marketing company”..
I will make sure keith and Dennis have a great little spot on “ripoffreport” and I will begin to make a blog about them and rank it on their names so people can really find out what they are doing.
best of luck to all of you.
-
All Readers: See how rabid these MLM guys can get? Shouldn’t that tell you something about their character? Dennis posts facts and these guys respond with hate.
Hey Keith,
I am not a MLM guy at all actually. I am a professional attorney in the marketing industry of online & offline.
If you re-read once again I mention I do use SOC as their service is great my client communication, follow up and prospecting.
But you on the other hand are loving this interaction on your blog, creating the rankings and google does like that.
You are not providing any value, nor are you impacting the lives of others by creating information that is non-sense to certain facts.
If you were more clear (Dennis Yu) about MLM, and yourself being in affiliate marketing for sometime clearly know that affiliate marketing is worse, with these fake blogs you guys create and trial offer type of products that re-bill people at $89.95 on a monthly basis. The big product launches that are over hyped with false promises and useless ebooks and products.
So before you go out shooting down companies in-directly, take a look at what you have truly done and how you have impacted and brought value to the masses.
For the whole “almighty dad” website, its great for dads and people out there. I watched the videos etc.
But to come and in-directly bash a $100 million dollar MLM company with NLP tactics and persuasion in your writing fulfilling the feelings of those who sit around and can only dream but can’t do, is absolutely bogus.
We can keep going on here for days, or you guys can remove this post completely.
2 can play the game as I can begin to rank under your names and begin the same bashing as you have begun here in-directly.
-
By the way,
If you head over to Godaddy.com or any of the domain registries, you will find that the following domains are available for purchase:
1. http://www.almightydadscam.com
2. http://www.dennisyu.com
You both know how well .com rank, and how effective they are in the eyes of people.
Just a heads up!
Thank you for removing this post, bashing a highly successful company in-directly to benefit your local marketing company (unprofessional).
-
Reader: go ahead and outrank me on my own name. I don’t drive traffic with my name anyway. I don’t even get much direct traffic to almightydad.com anyhow. Keywords on individual articles are what drives traffic from google. Thus, if you want to make this post disappear, I suggest writing an opposing view and getting readers. Eventually you might actually manage to push this article down and make it disappear. I welcome the debate, and if you do manage to get this particular article to become irrelevant then that’s really ok with me. Keep in mind that this is one article out of 361 others. It gets a fair amount of traffic, but that’s not really the point. The point is that it’s only ranking highly now because people find it relevant (which I didn’t expect). When something else eventually starts getting more reads then that’s fine. Please, Reader, understand that I’m not just bashing for the sake of traffic. I like the traffic, but this post was originally intended as a warning to parents not to get wrapped up in what I consider to be a losing bet. You disagree; that’s fine. But, it’s not helpful to be mean and use made up slams (we don’t spam, we have no re-bill scam offers, we don’t have useless e-books and we certainly don’t have fake blogs). All this content is original. I haven’t scraped a single word from someone else. Dennis’ site is completely legit too. We aren’t spammers, Reader. We don’t do that.
Reader: .com doesn’t have anything to do with rankings. Nothing at all. I thought you said you did online marketing.
I’d respond to our “show biz “poster, but reading comprehension does not seem to be a skill he possesses, since he refers to Dennis as an” unnamed”, guest blogger. Besides, I fell asleep reading his posts. Verbosity is not a virtue.
But our “attorney” is another case. He:
1. Calls you a vulgar name. I had to consult the urban dictionary to learn it’s meaning.
2. Links his name to ripoff report?
3. Makes retaliatory threats.
4. Doesn’t seem to know the difference between the FTC and the SEC. Maybe his law firm is Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe, and he graduated from the Acme School of Law, a subsidiary of the Acme Corporation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_Corporation
5. Calls your blog a fake blog. Hilarious considering how many preemptive MLM blogs there are. Google the name of your favorite MLM and the word,”scam”, and see how many positive reviews there are. Why are they ranking so high? Because the word is getting out about the despicable world of MLMs, and they are desperately trying to convince folks that they are legitimate. If you Google a legitimate company (non MLM) and the word, “scam”, you’ll either find someone who hates the company or some nefarious activity directed at the company or its products.
Many MLMs are indeed LEGAL pyramid schemes and will continue to operate as long as they can continue to find and indoctrinate/deceive recruits. Plenty are operating illegally until they get caught. Interestingly, may of the longest established MLMs have expanded oversees searching for fresh meat, er, recruits as Americans become more educated. Amway ran into trouble in England, but managed to get in, while Mary Kay has recently been spending a lot of money in China and India.
“Mr. Attorney” has the credibility of a mountebank.
From Top 10 reviews (SOC ranks… last at 13th–can see limited review on left hand link):
http://online-greeting-card-review.toptenreviews.com/index.html
Review:
“SendOutCards is a network marketing company. Individuals buy into the program and operate their own card sites under the SendOutCards umbrella. This makes the site confusing and difficult to use.
You must buy a $99 membership to purchase, and cards are charged on top of that. However, the designs and selection are great, customization process is streamlined including a font which duplicates your handwriting, and a range of gift cards are available to add to your card for a complete gift.
Summary:
Use with caution if you don’t want to be involved in a network marketing company, or just use another one of the card sites on our matrix.”
http://online-greeting-card-review.toptenreviews.com/u-design-it-cards-review.html
Watch the sheeple jump on the two positive statements, make excuses for the last place ranking, claim you can join for less (which may be true but is besides the point), slam the competition inaccurately, etc., ad nauseam…
Keith, I want to say that it is really amazing the amount of rage in the midst of the comments here on this blog. I would have to agree with you that many mlm companies are scams, but I think you have gone overboard to make Send Out Cards the bad guy here.
I would like for you to know that the company puts out a quality product, with the ability to create cards from your own digital pictures and to write in your own handwriting. I also don’t forget birthdays anymore because the system sends me an email for everyone in my contact list in plenty of time to get a card out to my friends, family and people I do business with.
I only wish I was an Eagle but I will say I have made much more than my investment back and just today got a call from an insurance agent that is a friend of mine , I’ve sent him numerous birthday and anniversary cards, he wants to start using our system to keep in touch with his clients. The company has a valuable product and very easily could have just sold it and would have been successful without the multi-level system of marketing.
I’m not sure what you have a problem with when a company sells it’s product for as little as 62 cents and is atill able to give some back to the distributors. Oh by the way I really don’t know what you do but I have noticed something about affiliate marketing in the comments. Does every affiliate selling your product make it big? I just think we can all be a bit more reasonable and maybe realize that some aren’t even trying to make big money they just like the product and want to pick up a few bucks.
Jeff: I don’t think you read very well. Either that or you just don’t pay attention to the names people have been calling me and Dennis. If you’ll read the actual article you’ll notice there’s no rage at all. Also, there’s no rage in any of my comments perhaps you should look up what “rage” means. And while you’re at it look up hyperbole.
I think for a stay-at-home dad, Greg sure seems to have a lot of time on his hands!!!!
Carrie: Who’s Greg?
Keith,
I had never heard of you before today,but I will say you certainly know how to stir the water. You have obviously noticed that there is a large number of people in MLM so you have a very big market place. There is an awful amount of abuse coming from you towards opportunities given to people who are trying to make a difference in their lives, and usually this talk comes from people who are perhaps jealous at someone else’s success.
I was like you in business and found also that my income would not support my family. There wasn’t a lot I could do about it apart from hang on in there and hope for an upturn. The upturn came when some one told me of MLM, the fact that I could make an extra income outside of my other business and that I would’nt have find extra capital that I hadn’t any chance of getting anyway and I wouldn’t need to add to my staff or overheads. I saw an extra £500 a month as a life saving figure for us and achieved it within 18 months. No super deal, but it was earned in the time I would have spent drowning my sorrows about my failing business or sitting at home in front of the TV, and it kept the roof over our heads.
Can I ask you if an extra $500-$600 a month at the time your business was failing would have made a difference to your family? Who gave you the advice that you could support your family on the back of other peoples dreams of becoming a Bruce Lee? I dont see you slagging them. MLM gave me a chance, which I took and worked alongside my other business in which time I also had quite a few team members earning far more than me and can I say, thanks to the support and training I passed onto them from me. There is a lot of satisfaction in knowing that you have contributed to peoples succes and Kieth that doesn’t happen too often in the corporate world.
When my income from MLM grew bigger than that of my other business, we were able to get out of that business and continue working our MLM business from home less the £650,000 per annun overheads that came with running a ‘normal’ business. Twelve months ago I came accross SendOutCards and saw it as a great way to save money and time that we spend every year on cards and gifts supporting our team in our MLM business. It is a first class company!
I have studied their latest 2009 Income Disclosure (not the 2008 one you had published in Nov 2009) and taking into account that the company is only in it’s 6th year and markets a $0.62 product it’s earnings figures are impressive – far more impressive than you make it out to be. What you seem also to forget Kieth is that people don’t have to do MLM, they can quit whenever they like, so when I see letters of people saying they lost thousands of dollars, I say more fool you. You should have got out earlier!
I now promote SendOutCards and have plenty of testimonials from satisfied wholesale account holders who are gaining extra business over their competitors thanks to SendOutCards and a growing team of Distributors who have invested only $398 in opportunity that gives them a chance to, as Kerry put it back in March 30th this year, ‘actually own their own business’.
To quote from the SendOutCards Income Disclosure, “Your success with SendOutCards results only from successful sales efforts, which require hard work, diligence, skill, persistance, competence and leadership. Your success will depend upon how well you exercise these qualities, in addition to your effectiveness in selling SendOutCards products, developing customers, building and training a sales organisation (downline). The company does not hide this and neither should any Distributor hide it from a prospect.
Come on, all business’s are hard work, they take time, but the biggest reason for people failure in MLM in my experience is that they do not treat it as a business. they treat it as a hooby, get hobby money and then blame MLM.
The people that do work hard, are consistant and disiplined will get results.
Best wishes
Eddie Daly
Eddie: I didn’t want to be Bruce Lee as I never studied Kung Fu. And, no, I wouldn’t want another 5 or 6 hundred extra dollars if it meant ripping people off to get it. All you people are so passionate about this sendout cards things. That’s weird because if I had written a post about how martial arts academies are a rip-off, I never would have gotten such impassioned responses. Could it be that that other business owners are much less fanatical about their method of making money? Perhaps they’re less defensive because there’s less to be defensive about.
Another country heard from, Keith. (literally). The threads on scam.com died a while ago, and this little MLM is so small that very few folks care. So now we again have the “I” story, the lazy loser argument, and the deceptive information. You do NOT own your own business; you are an independent contractor who pays to participate.
Our “across the Pond” friend has a whopping two testimonials on his web page. He also claims SOC is the largest privately owned card company in the world on his link. American Greetings is a public company, but Hallmark Cards is privately held.
Some fun stuff:
http://www.thecoolbuzz.com/whats-the-potential.html
(SOC response: get in early, data outdated—but who cares? What a tiny little MLM we have here)
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/sendoutcards.com/
(easily manipulated data, current Alexa ranking 3711 in US, but not very impressive—did they have an annual meeting in September ? Why the dip at Christmas?)
http://www.bbb.org/utah/business-reviews/online-shopping-sites/send-out-cards-in-salt-lake-city-ut-22002277
(I think the BBB is pretty scammy itself, especially with their new grading system, but, really, all SOC has to do is join and their rating will zoom from “F” to “B+” faster than a speeding bullet)
Even publically held MLMs creatively spin their numbers, but it is easy to see one thing clearly: The product is ALWAYS a small portion of income generated compared to sales of pay to play sheeple (membership, which includes purchasing the product to varying degrees, training aids, etc.) Those that publish their sales never separate out wholesale vs. retail sales—if they did, you would easily see that the opportunity to simply sell the product and earn anything other than pocket change would be self-evident.
Bottom line: I would guess this itty bitty little MLM will chug on along but never be a big player in the unethical, immoral world of MLMs. Personally, I really don’t care one way or the other. On another blog, I presented a compelling argument to cause an MLMer to get out of MLM once and for all. My sole purpose is to contribute to the education of potential recruits.
I believe this gentleman summed up the best way to make money in an MLM: “I have found one surefire way to make loads of money off of an MLM scam: be the bartender.
I work in a hotel bar and after what I can only assume had been a long, hard-sell performance in one of our conference rooms, the scammers brought their prospective clients down to the bar. In an effort to impress the suckers, the leaders were literally throwing money over the bar at me. 4 shots cost $16 bucks, so he tipped me $20, 10 drinks for all his “friends” is $50, here’s a $50 tip as well.
By the end of my normally sleepy Tuesday night shift, I had made over $600… my average on a Tuesday being about $75. It almost made me uncomfortable to take his money because I could see that he was trying to show off, and I had a feeling this kid didn’t really have the money to spend.
I don’t know for sure what the product or plan was for this group, but I’ll bet I probably have the highest income/time-invested ratio in the whole company…”
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2008/05/11/how-one-reader-narrowly-avoided-multilevel-marketing/
☺
Hmmmmm. I will be walking to my mailbox to get my check from my send out cards business
William: Why not disclose how much that check is if you’re so proud of it?
Angie,
Send Out Cards greeting cards are real physical greeting cards sent through the U.S. Postal Service, not free e-cards. Frankly, SOC is the only company I’ve seen in 23 years around network marketing where the product is cheaper through the company than you can buy in the store. The average Hallmark card is about $3.00/piece, and unlike the SOC cards they won’t have your own pictures in them.
With Hallmark cards you can’t upload your own pictures to print out on the inside of the card, and even though there are other services out here where you can do that none of them offer the ability to do it for a maximum of $1.24 per card. That happens to be the most expensive card you can send on SOC and that’s a fully customized 5 panel greeting card that you can upload as many as 17 of your own photos to be printed on the front and inside the card.
I actually promote the program almost exclusively to business owners and teach them how to use it as a customer relationship marketing system and it works great for that purpose.
I’m a retired attorney who teaches business owners how to market their businesses through relationship marketing and I’ve studied the network marketing/MLM industry for over 23 years now. The vast majority of people in network marketing don’t make money, from my own experience, because network marketing sometimes attracts the kind of people who are not truly committed to making their businesses work. The success stats for network marketing are sometimes skewed by the fact that so many people will pay a little money to sign up and then do absolutely nothing to build the business.
The average network marketer pays about $300-500 to start a business which is nothing in comparison to traditional businesses. Compare that to a franchise where one may be required to invest $50,000 or more to acquire the franchise rights and then have to build out a store and hire staff on top of it. McDonald’s franchises can start at $500,000 before you even open your store. By comparison, network marketing businesses are less risky, but they many times attract people who should never be in business for themselves anyway, which is why the attrition rate is so high.
All things considered networking marketing as a business model is not the problem. The quality of business professional it attracts, because of the low price of admission, is what makes it appear to be a scam. As I look around at most network marketing presentations I see a bunch of employees who are just a step short of getting fired from their jobs for doing the bare minimum to get a paycheck, and they bring that same mentality into network marketing. If we were being totally honest in our assessment of the facts, and if we look into the qualifications of people who start network marketing businesses I think there would be less surprise about how many people fail at it.
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Dennis and Kevin – I am in the mortgage industry and have been using SendOutCards for over 3 years. I have found the service to be an essentional component in my business. Over the years I have found that there is not a single system that works best. I use a little bit of everything to reach out to prospective mortgage clients and to retain existing ones. I have a top ranked website for my search terms. I use email to the extent that it is realiable. I use the phone, and, I use SendOutCards. Why, because the cards are high quality and they work.
The reason I joined SendOutCards rather then another service is because of the cost and convenience. I cannot buy and send an equivilent card for the same cost. What put it over the top for me was the ability to send a single card, that I had created from scratch for less that $1.50.
I have found that in my business it is unwise to rely on email or printed material. Most people are overwhelmed with Spam and junkmail. A card seems to have a higher success rate. I have yet to be told by a receipant of one of my cards that it was unthoughtful or cheap.
Kevin, you are welcome to critize MLM’s and Dennis, I understand why you would rather have busineemen like me pay you for AdWords rather then send a client or prospect a heart-felt card, That doesn’t negate the value of the service. AdWords can help bring the clients in, but they can’t close the deal. SendOutCards helps to differentiate me from my competition.,
I believe enough in the service that I have started a side business, NiceTouchMarketing to help other small business men and women do the same. Yes, I make a little money off of them, but I am helping them to pursue their passion within their industry. I sell them on the service, not the dream of walking away from their job.
One of the reasons that SendOutCards success rate appears so low is because many of the reps are working their own business and not SendOutCards. But if it is helping them to make money in their chosen profession, why is it wrong?
What I do dislike about MLM’s in general is that many people who join would never go into business for themselves. They have no business or sales skills, so they “sell” their friends, family and co-workers. On that we can agree.
SOC’s prices may indeed be the best around, even if you factor in the membership fee and only use it as a marketing tool for your business. BUT…
Despite our recent posters, MLMs are simply immoral and unethical, and most folks lose money:
http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html
http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/MLM.php
Personally, if i owned a business, I’d rather pay more for marketing tools than play any role in the deplorable ways of MLMs— even as a consumer of the product.
How do you send cards and how much do you spend on cards? What business are you involved in?
Keith, with the time you have wasted with your negative replies, you could have been out doing some voluntary work or helping someone in need. Do you have nothing better to do than sit and knock every comment… Get a life….. you are boring.
Carolyn: And you could be doing something better than trolling for the keyword “sendout card scam” I suppose people who write things you disagree with must all be wasting their time. They should all go volunteer or something. Would that save your precious sensibilities? If people just shut up about the things you don’t like?
I can’t help but be a little curious as to what you get out of bashing Send Out Cards? Did you once lose money to a MLM company? Do you hate someone who was in a MLM company? What has SOC or any SOC distributor ever done to you to warp you so badly?
Meanwhile, I can’t help but wonder why you would not take me up on my offer to send you my banner address so you could try it out for yourself. You can send up to 6 free cards, on me, for a 15 day period. When the 15 days is up, guess what happens? NOTHING. You don’t turn into a frog. You don’t get plagued by locusts or warts. You just make your own decision as to whether or not you want an account of your own, and that’s the end of it.
Scared you might like it?
Send Out Cards is appropriate for anyone who can read and write, has a computer, and loves their friends, families and customers enough to send them a heartfelt greeting. We know you can read and write. We know you have a computer. Uh oh. Maybe you don’t love, or have any friends, family and customers. Maybe you don’t have a heart with which to send a heartfelt greeting.
I’m sorry. You are a sad case, and I will go away and stop commenting, because your problems are way worse than I thought. If I had your address, I’d send you a sympathy card.
Linda: I don’t have anything against SOC that I don’t have against any MLM. You just happen to be another zombie. There’s no arguing with a zombie.
Wow. The typical MLM zealot/troll response.
1. Attack your motives: hatred, lazy loser, ulterior motives. (Instead of the obvious: educating consumers/readers about MLMs)
2. Ad hominem attacks.
3. Avoiding the obvious: presenting evidence that proves you can earn money with SOC, since both blog articles showed that not only is that difficult, no one other than the creators and TOPPS are doing so.
I’ve never met Keith and have only come to “know” him through his blog. Seems to me he is a nice guy with a loving family and a good blogger who writes on a variety of topics that show his strong moral and ethical compass. I’m sure he has plenty of friends. But Keith, if you need any more, I’ll be happy to apply for the position of cyberpal.
Doo Dilly: Thank you. Sometimes I listen to all this hate and wonder if I’m really so horrible. I also wonder how some people can be led so easily by avarice. It’s like a person who’s willing to kill over a lottery ticket with a 1 in 14 million shot. I’d love to have another cyberpal!
Send out cards is poorly represented. Their software is outdated. They make promises they can not keep. And the cards print out unlike the ones designed on their crappy software. Once you try to talk to customer service you will get the run-around from a bunch of mindless fools. Do Not Waste your time or Hard Earned dollars on another lame pyramid scheme!
This is a retarded article.
Most people don’t make any money at MOST businesses.
To say it’s a scam because “69% of people aren’t making any money” is very disingenuous. Most people start things and don’t take action. Most people that buy treadmills stop using them and remain fat. Most people start diets and then fall back into their old eating habits quickly.
I’m not affiliate with Send Out Cards, but let’s get some truth into this post instead of just slamming them based on nonsense.
Kevin: Retarded? It isn’t a scam because most people don’t make money, it’s a scam because the few people who do make money do it off of the people who don’t make any. I’m not sure if you understand how that works, Kevin. If I own a business where I employ people at 8 dollars an hour to work for me and I produce an actual product, there is no scam going on (provided I tell the truth about the product). However, if I sell you an opportunity to make money (no product), take your money and then tell you it’s your fault you aren’t making anything because you didn’t turn around and sell other people? That’s a scam. Yes, SOC has a product, but that’s not what’s being sold (it is, in fact, how they get around the law) and that’s not how people are making money. Kevin, You should use the word “retarded” a little more selectively. Perhaps it’s retarded to not listen to an argument before calling it retarded. I think you should stick to swimming, Kevin, before you get bamboozled by one of these con artists. You say you want truth? What exactly is that table I put in the post? Not facts? You think that’s a lie? How about you drop the hyperbole, Kevin.
Can you use my name a couple more times?
I’m not getting what you’re saying. If someone wants to join, it’s their choice to join. If they want to make money, they have to buy & sell the cards, as well as get others to join and do the same. I’m not sure why this is a scam. If you research it fully, you can see exactly what it is. Of course some people will join and expect money to be deposited in their account without having to do anything. But how are they being scammed exactly?
Swimming?
Aren’t you Kevin Koskella? I’m not going to explain how MLMs work, Kevin. You sell opportunity, that’s how you make money. You don’t make it by selling cards. Not sure how much clearer that could be.
No, I never put my last name in here to my knowledge. Are you tracking IP’s or something? That’s not too cool.
A scam is where you buy a product that doesn’t work and the seller vanishes. I’m not sure how this is a scam, unless there are lies being told. What exactly are they lying about?
Ok, I looked it up and you’re right, by definition the post cannot be “retarded” as I had stated. Sorry to have offended you, that wasn’t my intention, it was more of a knee jerk reaction.
Calling people “zombies” is along the same lines though, so you may want to watch that.
Anyhow, the post certainly can be incorrect and misleading, which I believe it is. The last part of the post is why:
“For sending cards it’s not a scam. Sandy is right about that. But, for making money? Yes! It is most definitely a scam. You are 95.5% guaranteed to make very very little money and 69% guaranteed to make no money at all (or lose money). Those are the facts. ”
How is this a scam, even with those statistics considered? One of my friends owns a very successful internet business where they have a membership site. He says that only about 3% of people that sign up for his site actually use the services. Is this too a scam? Should he be responsible for every single person using what they paid for?
69% not making any money should not be a surprise if you’ve had any experience in business or in MLMs.
It’s the 80/20 principle, only this is a little better at 70/30.
I’m very curious about these people who are supposedly getting scammed. Did Send out cards lie to them in some way? Did they promise huge earnings? Or was it like other businesses where they showed the potential?
It’s a scam for the same reason all MLMs are scams. Doo Dilly has posted some excellent links that talk all about MLMs and the tactics they use to get people to drink the kool aid. Maybe check those out for some really in depth reading. Also, see his very long comments on the matter here in this thread. It’s all been explained before. See also my comments on what constitutes a real business. I’m not offended by the word “retarded”. It’s not a matter of being PC that got me riled, it’s the fact that you called actually think it’s retarded. I can understand if you disagree, but it’s far from retarded. Oh, and I’m not tracking IPs. Your e-mail is the same as someone who happens to be a triathlon coach by the name of Kevin Koskella.
MLMs aren’t scams as a rule.
Some are scams. Not all.
You still have not explained yourself.
What specifically makes Send out cards a scam? Did someone promise that everyone who joined would make 100k a month? I feel like you’re making a huge leap here, and assuming that because 69% aren’t making anything that it must be a scam, but you seem to have no evidence of this.
A scam is a fraudulent business. Who are they frauding? What are they promising that they are not delivering on?
Kevin: You are just willfully not listening now. I was very clear. Scroll back in these comments and read Doo Dilly’s very long and very thorough explanation of why it’s a scam. I also told you why it’s a scam, but you choose not to listen to that either. The product being sold is not cards, it’s opportunity. People do not make money by selling cards, they make money by selling the system. Now, if you’re really interested in having some answers (which I really don’t think you are) You’ll go back and read previous comments by doo dilly and myself.
I read the comments Doo Dilly made, and I read yours and Sandy’s and nearly all the others here.
There is still no evidence that this is a scam. I’m fully willing to listen. I have no vested interest in SOC, I just happen to know someone who is making money in it, and I’m curious. (BTW, would you say that my friend is likely lying to me since it’s a scam?)
Even if you are correct, that there is no product but just opportunity, this is not a scam…UNLESS, someone is specifically deceiving others and getting them to join by lying to them. Is this happening? If not, you don’t have a case. If you can show me where this is being done, I’m wide open to the idea that this is a scam operation.
If you bought a course from me that I told you had the potential to earn you $10k/month if you followed along and implemented the ideas, would you say I scammed you if you were making $0/month 6 months later?
I’m really trying to follow your logic here but so far, there’s no evidence being pointed to.
Kevin: Sorry, we’re just talking past each other here. You want a definition of scam. I’m telling you the act of pretending the product is cards when it is really opportunity is a scam. We disagree on the definition of scam. You clearly have some interest in MLMs if your this bent on twisting the definition of scam.
This article i hilarious! It doesn’t take into account ANY of the merit of the product.
Send greeting cards from any computer to anywhere in the world for .62 cents plus postage… That is HUGE value.
Yes it is MLM and we are SO lucky it is. This means we can be paid if we help it grow. You are paid for the growth you are responsible for… I can accept that, in fact I love that!
Most people make zero dollars because most people buy SOC to use not sell. It’s unlike any other MLM in the industry because of this and we have the largest if not THE largest retention rate of any MLM and most companies.
There are two eagles in SOC. But they have been working the business for 5+ years. That’s what you have to do to become the top level pay outs in any company.
Hethe?: No, you’re hilarious. Publish how much money you’re making at SOC. If you made any money, you made it selling the system to other people, you didn’t make it selling cards. That’s the hilarious part. All you MLM people are the same.
A scam is where someone is lying.
Where is the lying here?
We’re not talking past each other, you simply will not provide evidence to back your claims. What you are describing on this blog is a “risky proposition”, not a scam, by definition.
I have been a part of 2 mlm’s in the past. The first one, I made $0 after putting in some time and effort (but no money). I definitely had the get rich quick mentality, and was not putting in the work required. I can’t really blame the MLM company on that one.
The second one I did, I made back the money I invested ($500) about about another $1200 within about 3 months. The company had problems and I could see this. I don’t think they were shady or scammy, just poorly managed. I bailed out before even finding out what happened to them.
I became interested in SOC when my friend was actually making money with them. Do you think he’s a scam artist by telling me about it? Is he lying? Who is scamming who? Where’s the victim?
If you can’t answer my questions, you don’t have a case. You have built a strong case that this is a very RISKY business proposition, but this is by no means the same thing as a scam.
Definitions are extremely important here.
The lie is that the cards are what is being sold when it is in fact opportunity that is on sale. A scam is also a deception (the truth can be told, but masked by less relevant information). I’ve now answered your question several times. Yes, definitions are important — thus you should listen to what I’ve repeatedly said. If you disagree then that’s fine, but it doesn’t mean I didn’t answer your question. You not liking the answer is not the same as not having answered it. I’ve explained repeatedly why I think it’s a scam and exactly how. The fact that you can’t understand is your problem and not mine.
Keith,
Let’s just be specific here.
I honestly think of a deception as a lie, maybe just a small lie, but a lie.
Can you tell me specifically what the lie or deception is? I’m not trying to be snotty or anything. I really want to know. Who is the victim, and how are they being deceived?
Many people here have outlined out they use the service for buying cards. This means they are using it. There is a product. Anyone who signs up is aware of what it costs to use the system.
Again, where specifically is the deception?
Dang it, Kevin: Read my comments. I just got finished telling you what the deception is. Here, just for you, since you’re so persistent, I’ll tell you again. The deception is the same as all MLMs. The cards are nothing but a front for what is really being sold. The thing really being sold and pitched is OPPORTUNITY, not cards. Again, I really want you to understand how that is deceptive, but if I can’t get you to see it then we’ll just have to part ways here because you’ll never get it if you haven’t yet. By the way, every time you comment I get higher rankings on this article. Nobody gives a damn about the cards. What people who sell really care about are getting more people to sell. The product is really irrelevant, and it’s totally deceptive. If you’ll notice, most of the posters here are affiliates. You think they really care about the product. The product doesn’t make them money. Selling the system makes them money. But, of course, when they tell you about SOC they’ll start by telling you how great the “product” is. It’s only later that you find out what is really going to make you money, and it’s not the cards. Scam.
That’s not being specific Keith.
You’re saying “It’s a deception because…”
But you’re not saying who is doing the deceiving, and who is being deceived. Therefore, what you are stating is your opinion, not based on facts or specific examples.
I could say “Keith’s blog is deceiving, and this is obvious because of all the people that argue with him”. But I didn’t provide evidence of you being deceiving.
Who within SOC is going around telling people that they only make money from the cards, and not from people signing up? If that is the case, you are right, this is deceiving. But the fact is, people are making money from the cards. So there IS a product, and people working with SOC CAN make money and ARE making money.
It’s very possible that people don’t give a damn about the cards. But one, you haven’t shown this, and two, this still doesn’t mean there is no product and that it’s a scam.
If you can get specific and provide examples, great, otherwise, you are being deceiving and are just wanting more comments to up your google rankings!
Kevin: I’m sorry that you don’t know what a deception is or how MLMs work. I’ve tried to explain it, but it’s falling on deaf ears. look at all the people who’ve commented here. Many of them talk all about how great the cards are. But, then listen to their sales pitch and they’ll suddenly start talking about something else. If you’ve never heard an MLM sales pitch then you’re ripe pickings for these people. Like I said before, go see all of Doo Dilly’s links. That will take you right to the information you seek. I can recount my personal experiences with MLMers but I doubt that will convince you as you won’t take that as proof. What you’re really doing is going around in circles. But, that’s fine with me. I’m happy to keep going because every comment I get just helps this post.
Kevin, You brought up two points on my last comment.
1) If I make money selling cards and 2) how the money is made.
I don’t “Sell” cards – I create awareness of a product/service and the awareness of an opportunity. If you want to say I “sell” this product and opportunity, I wouldn’t get offended.
The answer to the (1) question:
It’s actually illegal to state what I make. I’ll just say after 2 years (not overnight) I’ve matched my previous income on the residual side….. but do you really care about the numbers? If so I could provide you some very realistic but still hypothetical examples. The potential is huge, simple to do, but I don’t say it’s easy because you won’t make huge buck over night.
The (2) question:
The greeting card service is one of the most valuable services I have EVER seen for business professionals who need to have ongoing relationship with their clients. Not just because it’s 1/5 the price of a store bought card, but because of so much more (time, effort, relationship building, positives to the world, customization, opportunity cost of all thing things that would go unsent without sendoutcards, speed of delivery internationally, ect.). I could go on but I’m not trying to “sell” you on the idea of using cards as a way to keep in touch and why SOC improves upon it.
Money in SOC (and any MLM) is made by the growth you are responsible for in the company. Unfortunately, most of the time a MLM is a “Opportunity Driven Product”. What I mean by this is the only reason there is any on going sales and growth in sales is because of the potential to make money (the product itself has no merit).
SOC is a “Product Driven Opportunity”, meaning for the last 5 years people mainly talked about the product as the main feature and not the opportunity (which is unique to a MLM industry). This could change at some point and the majority of people could start leading with income first but this would not devalue the product.
I signed up a person as a Distributor (entrepreneur) today to use SOC in his business – Originally he was just going to be a customer but “I asked him if he knew anyone else who could benefit from using this product?” He is an insurance agent who is moderately successful but does ZERO follow up marketing. He loves how easy and inexpensive this is… there are 4 other agents in his office he thinks will LOVE this and he told me they to do no follow up marketing. Will this insurance agent be a Network marketing superstar? Probably not… but if he signs up his just 3 people he has 100% of this service paid back to him. He gets this money because SOC pays him for sponsoring people into the business. Personally, I used this product for about 1 year before I even told single person about it… I didn’t want anyone else to know about it, for fear they would start competing with my marketing
Some look at this initial pay check as simply a referral bonus… much in the same way some businesses and professionals give a referral fee when they get a new client. In this case though, he has just helped his fellow agents stay in front of and relevant to their clients BUT he will still get an ongoing commission for all the cards the people in his office send. Ideally they will duplicate what he did and break even themselves but there is no guarantee. In fact, the majority of people never sign up anyone because their ambition is not to grow a SOC team but to improve their business which is why they bought SOC in the first place. The still have an use SOC… are “technically” a distributor/entrepreneur but in reality they are just glorified customers (which is ok too). Again, this insurance agent breaking even will not likely make him a network marketing superstar… but I have found (my personal example but feel its typical) that 1 out of 10 people will work hard to make some real money at it.
Here’s where the money comes in… You don’t “Beach Money” from breaking even and stopping. You make that on going residual paycheck (Beach Money) when you have a team of people growing and using SOC. The “REAL” (as in large and long term) money in SOC comes from the cards being sent and NOT people joining SOC. This is probably a surprise to you… but again, it’s all in the numbers. (no promoting your business here) to see examples of the pay outs, but I can provide more detailed and more realistic examples if you’d like.
Let me ask you… do you consider “NetFlix” to be a scam? Our company provides an EXTREMELY similar value. I haven’t shared the following website with anyone in one year (since our SOC distributor web pages got their own video that talks about the product and income opportunity) but I have a NetFlix vs. SOC comparison video that you should take a peak at. Unless you consider Netflix to be a scam, watch this video and then try to look at SOC again as either a person who would love to use the service… OR as a prospective investor who sees a company about to grow 10 fold.
The website with the Netflix vs. SOC comparison:
(no promoting your business here)
—–Yes SOC is network marketing, but it is not a pyramid. If that is what someone is looking for they will be sorely disappointed as they won’t be making much money.
(Point of clarification, no hostility is put towards anyone. This is just my long/short answer to the post by kevin).
-Hethe
Woops… on the long post by me… I meant to reply to “Keith”
Sorry Kevin.
Netflix is not MLM. There’s no comparison.
The comparison takes place in how these companies bring value to the consumer. Not in how they choose to “market that value”.
Can you not see that?
If not then you either did not watch the video or are not being honest.
Hethe: I respect what you’re saying here, I really do. You’re making your case in a grown up and rational way without calling names. That’s gotta be worth something, right?
We clearly have a disagreement about the merits of the MLM distribution method. But, I’m going to let Dennis read what you’ve said and perhaps he can respond as it’s his post. I’ve made my peace about MLM so I figure it’s his turn now 
Let’s look at some numbers. I don’t have the ability to post a side by side comparison, but let’s see who’s making money and how much. I hope everyone knows that median income is a much more valuable parameter than average income.
From 2008-09, median incomes dropped significantly for 99.95% of participants. Only 0.05% rose, and the highest level went from 0-270k. Look at the incomes. They are very illuminating.
Now that’s probably reported from 1099 info, so you have to deduct business expenses (tax deductable does not nullify) and self-employment taxes.
If the median gross income ranges from $9.30 to $22,915.29 for 95%, how is that making a good living?
Many MLMers have real jobs and don’t realize that they actually lost money, even if they added income to their 1040 via their MLM. I have posted previous links to CPAs and their experience with MLMers.
https://www.sendoutcards.com/images/pdf/income_disclosure.pdf
It’s illegal to post income? By whose authority? The feds, the state? I already posted a link to a SOC big wig who posted his numbers—troll on up and find it.
As to the retention/churn rate, number of participants, we’ll just take your word for it, right? No, not really.
I too award points for politeness, Keith. But the rest of the post is the same that I’ve seen from numerous other MLM people on many other blogs. It always reads the same: Why my MLM is different/better than all the other MLMs.
Brother…
why is this a scam? do they not tell you the product? do they not show you the pay plan? if send out cards is a scam so is your translation service… why? because i say so… i’m just like you… i just say things and call it “opinion”… i’m sorry but your article is silly… once again, do they not explain the service, business, cost, commission, and everything else one would need to know to make an informed decision? maybe we sould all contact you… the stay at home dad and get permission from you? … i’m not sure what the failure or success rates of these mlms are… and i don’t care… i’m a chemist… most people failed many of the higher level courses i have taken… when i signed up… they didn’t tell me that… i guess i should have called the stay at home dad and asked about the various courses in chemistry… do you have opinions on these as well? with all due respect… you seem to be a stay at home dad with tooooo much time on your hands… for goodness sake, we are becoming a nation of silly bloggers… i’m not a member of this service (send out cards)… but i did receive a card from a friend that is so i looked up the company… the card was good quality with his pictures and his handwriting… i was impressed! i guess these scammers scammed me!!!! in closing, i ask once again, why is this a scam? (answer: because the stay at home dad says so…)
okay… i’m back… wanted to apologize for my message… didn’t mean to be a jerk… i never write on these damn things… anyway, everything i said about the card was true so i looked them up and ran into your analysis… i do not believe this or any other mlm business to be a scam… although, i’m sure some are… just as any business… some good/some bad… but people need to make “grown up” decisions… as long as they include “the details”… even if it is difficult to reach success… they are not scams… just difficult… all the best to you and your blogging…
Hi Keith. Since you’re a stay-at-home Dad, and have been doing battle with the SOC crowd, I thought you might enjoy this parody article I just came across:
http://www.happywomanmagazine.com/DIY/MLM.htm
Your cyberpal,
Doo Dilly
Doo Dilly: That’s perfect. I love their tagline “We do the thinking so you don’t have to.” Gold. Hey, we ought to market pine cones too! We’d get rich and then we could bicker with all the “naysayers”
Wow! That’s about all I can say. It’s taken me a few days to read through this thread. I’ve been trying to understand why people publish mis-information as fact and not just their opinion.
I’ve been using the SOC service for 4 years. I signed up for the service to better stay in touch with my customer base. Finally, I had so many people asking me about “the cool cards” I sent them and how they could do it too, I became a distributor by default.
Have I signed up distributors? Yes. Have I signed up customers? Yes. Do I make money when they use the service? Yes. Will I continue to sign up distributors and customers? Yes. But here’s the REAL question that seems to nullify your argument about SOC…
“If every customer and distributor I signed up quits using the service and I never make another dime from that, will I still continue to use the service?” YES!
Every person I’ve talked to in SOC feels the same way. If the company announced tomorrow that they would no longer pay commissions, every person I’ve talked to would still use the service.
Here’s the point that this amazingly long thread fails to reveal. Most of the distributors, from my personal experience, signed up for the service FIRST because they saw value in the service.
They then used the service to enhance whatever they were already doing professionally along with personally using the service to send birthday cards, anniversary cards, etc.
Then, just like what happened to me, other people who see value in the service wanted to know more about it. They then, like me, became distributors by default. After all, if people want to know how you do what you do, who better to show them than you?
The people in SOC are not focused on money. You may find that hard to believe but it’s true. The people in SOC are genuinely focused on finding ways to celebrate others lives while they are still living. It’s about giving, not getting.
Have you ever been to a funeral? Remember all the nice things that were said about the person who passed? Why didn’t someone take the time to say those things while they were still alive?
That’s what we do. We send a “from the heart” card and gift to celebrate people while they are alive to hear it and appreciate it. Plus the contact manager that comes with the service never lets me forget a birthday, anniversary and any other significant event making me a hero to my family, friends and colleagues.
My intention here was to shed light on a subject that, from what I have read, people are confused about or simply don’t know about.
Thanks for the opportunity to share my views.
And, by the way, Jordan Adler hit the rank of Eagle with several Senior Executives knocking on the door to Eagle so please update your “facts.”
Will: You put quotes around “facts” as if they aren’t. Tell me how they aren’t again? Explain this flood of eagle level people? This article was written a while ago. The fact that one guy makes eagle in all that time is hardly a ringing endorsement for the system. By the way, you know what quotes are for, right? They aren’t for emphasis or sarcasm. They’re for QUOTING somebody.
Okay, Keith. I tried to tell things as I see them and all you can say about the whole entire post is that I misused quotes? Really!?
I just wanted to make you aware that the facts (no quotes) have changed since this diatribe began and your original facts are no longer valid.
I never once, in the entire post, claimed a flood of Eagle level people. I said Jordan Adler attained that level with several others knocking on the door.
Instead of acknowledging that maybe a lot of people, including you, may have had the wrong idea about SOC, you choose, instead to comment on my misuse of quotes.
if you have the time, please look over my post again and let’s discuss the points I made.
Will: The reason I no longer respond to these sorts of impartial reviews of SOC with any seriousness is that I’ve already said everything that needs saying in past comments. There is ample rebuttal to all of this already. I’m sorry I wasn’t serious with you, but the sarcasm of that statement from you was pretty obvious. I just wanted you to know that the sarcasm was unwarranted.
Keith, you are right. It was unwarranted. It’s hard to make a point sometimes without letting sarcasm overtake you.
I just get really upset when I read the things posted in this thread. With any financial endeavor, there are people making money and people not making money. There are even McDonald’s franchisees that go bankrupt. That is the way of things.
All I wanted to do was make a statement that the service is valid. I have used it for years and would still use it if I never made another dime from it.
Thanks again!
Will: you SOC guys are really convinced about your company, so I’ll give you that. I just don’t see myself being convinced. But, who know. One day I might just turn over and say “I give up! Sign me up!” HAHAHAHA
Keith, thanks for the chuckle! For you, the SERVICE only! LOL!
I haven’t used my laptop computer in a week and this page was the last one I have been to when I did. today I was surprised to see all the new comments. I see what you mean keith… this stuff gets filled up quickly.
Doo Dilly, on your post after my last, I actually addressed those comments right before that post with some others. I wrote it up and was going to post it last week… because of certain things I had decided not to. If felt like I was authoring another article on the comments page. In stead I’ll just say this:
1) If the company has a product that is genuinely good and has a demand it can be a business.
2) If it can only exist as a MLM, tihen there is merit in being a part of that business to profit from the demand.
3) If the company will grow from 2 guys in a garage to a multibillion dollar company then there is room for many people to benefit (multibillion dollar is what I expect in the next few years). Normal companies sell stock for people to benefit.
We don’t sell stock, you get an on going residual paycheck for the growth you help SOC get.
Rather than get in on the details, if you agree with the idea of the 1-3 than you should agree with the merit of a SOC as a business opportunity.
-H
I couldn’t take the time to read all the crap on here from all of the “tiny brained wipers of other peoples bottoms”. Being an “Almighty Dad” doesn’t mean YOU are right and everyone else is wrong if the decide to do something that you don’t understand or are afraid of. If something is not illegal and not hurting anyone, don’t try to be the “society police” and keep others from doing something.
This story is SO old and should be updated! We now have several people who HAVE reached the top position of Eagle! And they didn’t happen in “pyramid scheme” order of who signed up first! And get this: while you gave credit about a few things, you still tried to claim that the cards don’t cost less than store bought cards when you factor in the sign up fee (cost for a LIFETIME account). Well, after showing a few people how to send cards, enough commission comes in to provide you with FREE cards for life. Plus, you can do things with these 62 cent cards that no 3-6 dollar store bought card could ever do.
So, stop being SO far to the right that you just can’t stand it when other people enjoy & benefit from something that you don’t understand because it doesn’t fit into your “traditional – dad & government are always right – you must go to college to be anything” way of thinking.
Make yourself feel better by doing something nice for someone else for a change. Quit being so negative and send somebody a note saying “Thank you” or “I love you” or “Great job” and see what kind of happiness you begin to experience!
And get over yourself. You say you’ve been opinionated since 1974. Well opinions are like ***#####, everybody has one. And you’ve had one a long time!
Post your address and see how many people, including myself, are willing to send you a nice card to help you feel better.
Chris: you clearly haven’t read any of my articles if you think I’m the pro-government sort and believe you can only be anything if you go to college. I’m sorry, Chris, but that’s about the most ignorant assumption I’ve heard on this tread so far. I feel great, Chris. I really do. You think I’m all full of hate, which is curious because you’re the one who’s insulting me here.
Keith, I don’t know how you do it. You’re able to stay upbeat and motivated enough to respond to all the comments on this thread. HAHA! I would have given up a long time ago. I think it’s pretty obvious that most people don’t read all the comments and the same points come up.
Although we disagree on SOC, (I feel because we have different information), that’s ok.
Keep that positive attitude… It a great thing to have. I’m sure there will be comments coming for a long time. That’s the power of Google ratings.
Hethe: I try
I used to get really upset when people attacked me and called me names. Now I just shake my head and laugh (usually). Sometimes it’s hard to get past the insults and figure out what people are really trying to say. You can probably imagine how refreshing it is to get a response that might not be something I agree with, but is at least respectful. Ahhhhh!
Another SOC puppet heard from. Notice how they all skip over my posts about MLMs in general, and the income opportunity in particular, gleaned form SOCs website.
HERE’S WHAT THE FOUNDER SAYS ABOUT SOC:
The personal benefits you gain are astounding:
1. You create and maintain lasting relationships, personally and professionally
2. You can express yourself at impromptu times and make a positive difference in others lives.
3. You will motivate, encourage, uplift and show appreciation in ways that you never thought possible.
4. By sending out cards, you will create a positive activity that will make you a better person in every aspect of your life. Your Relationships will be stronger, your self confidence will grow, your ability to express yourself will increase, you will change the world’s pattern of negative thinking into positive thoughts and activities.
5. You will be remembered as someone who remembers
As a result of all of these things, new opportunities will surface in your life. You will meet and befriend people that will help you accomplish goals and dreams that you never thought were possible.
We also realize that personal development and relationship building are difficult to do when you cannot pay your bills. Financial stress is one of the biggest problems in our society today. Our dependency on money creates a strain that makes it difficult to focus on anything or anyone but ourselves. People need fair opportunities that will help them get themselves on the road to financial security and independence. A financially stable person is better able to focus on things outside of themselves.
Because of this, Send Out Cards provides financial opportunities that can not only bring financial stability but a vehicle for residual income and financial affluence. These opportunities can be done in the home where a person needs and wants to spend more time.
https://www.sendoutcards.com/cgi-bin/trncustomer.pl?static_about_us:::
MY RESPONSE:
1. While sending cards to friends and family is thoughtful, I stopped a while ago and it has had no negative impact on my relationships. They continue to grow. Actions and time spent with people are much more important.
2. Many small businesses send me all sorts of cards, and I receive plenty of unsolicited ones. They have no influence on me or most folks I know.
3. Many small business owners (especially those in SOC) are convinced these things have a positive impact on their business, but can never seem to prove it. I know plenty of small business owners who continue to send them, but know that unless there’s a coupon enclosed, they end up in the trash.
4. His last point about finances has already been shown to not amount to much (in my last post), other than for the elite few at the top of the pyramid (and the founder).
5. Every MLM has an angle—why this one is different, etc., ad nauseum.
6. Same circus, different clowns.
…My icon/avatar character looks like an angry tomato.
I understand the point of view that this site is trying to pinpoint however, When you sign up with a company like Send Out Cards lots of people are going to consider the company a scam because they are not making the money that was said to be possible to make on the presentation. When you thinking of signing up with a company like this you have to take into consideration on how far along are you joining in. If the company has only been up and running for only a few months then the chances of making a great amount of money are greater than if you join the company 4-5years after it has been established. That is if it is at all successful.
Some people just don’t like the fact that someone has a good Idea that can potentially make that person a lot of money However if it were their Idea they would be all for it and do whatever necessary to make that Cheddar.
People come up with Companies and Organizations like this cause they understand the power of networking. No matter how you look at it, that is all it is. The only difference is when most people think of networking they think of family, friends, coworkers, and acquaintances. Now days you don’t have to know the person or need not even to have meet people out of your network. Lots of people are familiar with how this is possible. To give some examples: Facebook, Myspace, and Linkedin.
these are all networking sites however, with these sites the average person is not making any money.
The fact that these Companies/Organizations offer a way to make money, inevitably attracts people that don’t want to see them succeed. It is for this purpose that people give out information that list them as scams.
Think about this next time before jumping to conclusion, How long has this company beed established for? The answer to that one question can determine whether you are easily successful or how hard you have to work to become successful.
Well Doo Dilly… Not ganna comment on your opinion points. There is no need. I just hope you recognize that most people do like heartfelt cards. To say that most people like to hear from friends or loved ones is a point I don’t think I have to make. To say that most people like to make others feel good maybe is a point I need to make.
On the income side, let’s just say I think you are misreading the statistics on the disclosure sheet. I don’t quite understand it, but they are very misleading. Example: We have only two eagles in SOC, yet the average income of an eagle is $854,569.82 and the median is $270,563.76. They should be the same number… I don’t understand why they aren’t. It says the Highest annual earnings of a Sr. Executive is: $201,580.20 when I know for a fact that most (if not all) Sr. Exec’s make more than that. It says the lowest annual earnings of a Sr. Exec is $1,077.75 when it is actually an impossibility for a person to be a Sr. Executive and make this much. (You literally can’t be at this rank AND that low of an income).
My personal opinion, if you are not at Sr. Manager then you are not actually working the business (or just started to work the business). People who reach the rank of Sr. Manager have shown they want to make an income and not just use the product. In reality the VAST majority of people do not purchase SOC for the money opportunity but only to use the product. Since the requirements to getting to Sr. Manager are low it is what most of us consider the starting point.
Hethe: My most recent comment was written before you addressed me. Either my browser or Keith’s web page sometimes interferes with my ability to post long comments. So I e-mail them to Keith- and sometimes there is a long delay before someone on his end is able to post them.
Your #1: Yes.
#2 No. MLMs are a proven, ludicrous way to sell anything. I have provided numerous links to illustrate what’s wrong with MLMs.
#3. No. The comparison of “residual income” to stock dividends is not valid. I don’t think I need to explain this to anyone, but will if you press the issue.
I am not a blogger, but I would guess avatars are auto-generated. Mine looks like an inquisitive grape…or a one eye-eyed monster.
If the fruit fits…
Dan: I’m having a hard time understanding you. Are you saying that I am against SOC because they offer a way for people to make money? You realize that makes no sense, right? Creating an MLM is not an especially difficult thing to do. Why would I be upset at someone having a good idea? I just happen to think it’s a dishonest idea. Let’s not simplify the argument down to “well, well… you just hate it because it’s a way to make money.” (which I disagree that it is by the way).
Well, Hethe, before I dash off, I’m not going to bother to explain how median vs. average income can be so different, and why it’s important. I’ll get you started–the rest is up to you to learn about.
http://tinyurl.com/34oj23t
Ciao for now.
DooDilly, let’s address #2 first.
There is a huge market for a product like SOC. I don’t think you’d disagree with that. But the main reason the market is so huge is because of the cost per card. $0.62 per card plus a stamp is unbeatable. There is no one that can come close to that. Now for the reason why it has to be MLM is because without the free word of mouth marketing there would be huge over head in costs on many different fronts. The lack of overhead is what allows SOC to do these cards at a buck per. Many companies have tried to do what SOC does, most never start because they ask themselves “How do we make any money at a buck a card?” Some start the business but have costs way higher like I already said. The market is actually growing too.
Secondly, it is the one on one introduction to sending cards this way that get’s people started. Most people on the internet won’t spend 10 minutes on a website trying to figure something out.. but the one on one introduction to SOC has people being shown how to use it. Once they learn how to use it, it becomes as easy as an email. Only a real card gets sent out. This why big companies scrap their multimillion dollar investment into developing a program like this (even with a higher cost per card), because they simply can’t get anyone to do it. I forget if it was Hallmark or American Greetings who actually tried to do this and spent millions of dollars and ended up scrapping the whole project. We have virtually no competition, and when it comes to comparing costs, we most definitely have NO competition.
I won’t speak on the quality of our cards or website functionality either, although SOC is far superior, unless you compare for yourself there’s not point in arguing this part.
You posted a link a minute ago that talked about American Greetings. You didn’t comment on it because it wasn’t the point you were trying to make, but I will add it again here.
https://www.sendoutcards.com/cgi-bin/trncustomer.pl?static_about_us::
Quote: “American Greetings, a multi billion dollar greeting card company, conducted a study to find out the buying habits and needs of their consumers. They found that the average consumer buys 10 greeting cards per year but has a need for more than 70 greeting cards. The 2 primary reasons they don’t buy 70+ cards per year is due to 1) inconvenience, and 2) They forget. Obviously, Send Out Cards has created solutions to those problems and built a distribution system that will educate people on how to use their system. You can be a part of that system, fill a consumer need and make big money.”
That study was done by American Greetings, NOT SOC. They are the 2nd largest greeting card company in the country (world?). They say the demand for more cards being sent is there… again, like I said in the beginning (sorry I ramble sometimes when commenting), the demand for a product like SOC is there, but it seems ONLY at our price per card. BTW, the american greetings study didn’t include any business application for sending cards. This was ALL personal use so the true potential is even larger as most people so far have signed up to use in a business.
2 questions for you DooDilly,
#1)Do you to agree that if SOC wasn’t a MLM there would be a “Large” (not small) but large demand for SOC’s product or service (even if you yourself don’t like it)?
#2) After you answer that let me ask you, even if this is a MLM, does this change the demand of the product or service in the market?
Before I comment on why this is a wonderful thing and get off point I’ll stop to hear your answer.
***I’m pretty sure the avatar is auto generated. But it fit my original posts here. I pry sounded like an angry Tomato… I wonder if Keith did that on purpose
Haha! That was awesome DooDilly. The google link video HAHA!
Although you miss the point…
What is the median of “2″ numbers… ?
Example: What is the median of 50 and 100?
It’s 75.
Which is ALSO the average!
Still funny though. I’m going to find out how to do that
Hethe: The median is the middle number of a list sorted from high to low. So if there are only 2 numbers, there is no median.
I know what the median score is. I’m a finance major
…..I was just trying to point out another way that the disclosures are highly misleading. We only have two Eagles in SOC. Both of which I would bet the bank they are making over $500,000 per year. Yet the disclosure list a median score that is $600,000 thousand dollars less than the average.
According to various websites, if you want to find the median of only 2 numbers, you would do the same thing as trying to find the median of a set of even numbers. You take the the middle two numbers, add them together and divide by 2.
(you did not just add a link to google.)
Hethe: You’d be surprised how many finance majors don’t know that.
I actually remembered it from Jr. High. I was the type of kid who always asked the questions that annoyed the teacher. The two number set median question is the one where Mrs. Carlton started to dislike me and my inquisitive mind.
Hethe: You are talking about the mean of two numbers, not the median.
…Maybe we are on the wrong page.
If there is only two numbers in the example, the mean and the average are the same number.
you need to recheck your number. Realize this company started in 2004 not like many MLM companies – that started over 20 years ago! The whole greeting card industry went down over 10% last year, and Send Out Cards rose by 35%. That’s saying a lot during a recession! Also you need to read Robert Kiyosaki’s book – “The Business of the 21st Century” where he’s saying more and more companies are going to get into Network Marketing. it’s the business of the future. Take the blinder off, and relook with different eyes. This is a great company, and the ones who don’t make money… quick simply – don’t work at it.
Oh and the link to google was a run on joke from DooDilly’s link to google.
Hethe: Really? I didn’t see doo dilly’s link. I’m going to check it. Perhaps I’ll have to re-add yours. I blanket admit everything from doo dilly because I’m unfair like that!
It’s on his last comment… He was kind of insulting me in a fun way. It’s why I was laughing on my comment after that… I can’t wait to use it on some of my friends. Friggin’ hilarious!
Keith,
I didn’t read all of this stuff so I don’t know what your
beef with Send Out Cards is so I’ll just add my two cents
and be gone
DIsclaimer: I have been making a Full Time Income with
Send Out Cards for over 5 Years So I am a bit biased
I got involved with Send out Cards in Sept 2004 after getting
laid off from my 6 Figure Computer Programming Job in New York.
When I couldn’t find a job making anywhere what I was making we
had to sell out house in NY and move to Florida.
A Friend of Mine Showed me SOC and I got involved. I worked it
for a few months but didn’t take it seriously. I had owned “Brick
and Mortar” businesses in the past and spent a Ton of money on
them so I thought you had to spend $100K on a business.
I then started buying Real Estate and flipping it. I did this for
18 Months and lost my shirt. The whole time Send Out Cards was
sending me checks because i had shown it to a few people that were
using it and telling others. It wasn’t a lot of money but I wasn’t
doing anything so i couldn’t complain.
When I finally got rid of my Real Estate my wife suggested that I
focus on Send Out Cards. This surprised me because she Hates MLM but
I listened to her. From April 2006 – August 2006 (5 Months) I focused
hard on Send Out Cards. By SUgust 2006 i was making a Full time income
with the company and I haven’t looked back since
Can ANYBODY do what I did? … Absolutely
Will they? … Nope. most people are not willing to do what it takes
95% of People in SOC just join to use the Product. Most of them are
professionals who use it in their business so thats why most people
are not geting to the higher positions … they’re not trying to.
The Product is Stellar. High Quality Greeting cards for under $1
as well as a full line of gifts. The money is there if you work it
Jack Bastide
407-545-8020
P.S. What was the purpose of Trashing SOC in this post anyway? Whats
your motive? Just curious
Jack: My motive is to warn people about a kind of marketing that I believe is dishonest and a waste of time. It could have been SOC or any other MLM. I warn people about gambling, drugs and all sorts of things I think are bad. Wouldn’t you warn people about things you think are bad, like me for instance?
Never mind .. I See you didn’t even write the
original Trash Article
You can delete my response if you want .. or
not
There will Always be people trashing something. Its human
nature
Jack
Keith,
I don’t think you’re bad … Just a little Misinformed
I have been involved with Many MLMS over the years. Some
good, some not so good
Here is what Separates SOC from many of the others
The Product stands on its own. If I wanted to just sell the product
to businesses without building a sales team i could do that all day
long. I have MANY customers that just use the service at Retail. Most
MLMS can’t say that
Anyway I’m not gonna convince you and I don’t want to
so lets just agree to disagree
Have a great day and keep up the good fight against those bad
MLM people
Jack
Thanks for posting this. I think it’s a shame, especially in this economy, for anyone to get sucked into a multi-level marketing scheme like this. The first article I looked at under the search words “send out cards scam” was actually a lady promoting the system. I’m glad you’re putting some good, common sense information about these “get rich quick” systems.
Anna: you’re welcome. This article was written with the genuine intention to inform rather than suck people in with fake reviews. It has drawn the hatred of the MLM crowd because it’s one of the few articles on the internet with any power that takes a negative view of MLM’s. The MLMers would prefer we go away. I’m not going to begrudge their right to say what they want about their business, but they seem to want to silence me which I find a little disturbing. They don’t seem to be able to take criticism.
I came to this forum to help me make a decision. I’m also old enough to know that many MLM’s have been bought out or sold. I remember some that thought they were legitimate and would be around for a long time, but it didn’t happen. So my advice to anyone is to investigate doing MLM just as you would an online business not MLM or a brick and mortar. You see some of the non MLMs also went out of business and they also thought they had the best product since sliced bread. Another thing, and just my “feeling”, and we shall see, if the main product “being able to send cards manually” is the key, don’t think that other card companies won’t get in on the business and once the demand and supply grows larger the price of doing business this way will come down for the average buyer . So in the next year or so this SOC will probably do well; but just like the brick and mortar once it gets saturated it may fold. I’m not negative , I’m being real. I think you just have to use your commonsense and decide what works for you. It may be that SOC is a god send for those at the top, It may be that for others it is just not worthwhile. I think it best for you to find what works for you.” Everybody is right and Everybody is wrong” as one of the greatest business owners I know in sales would say. You see, if you are true to yourself and trust your own intuition you’ll know what to do.
Just want to correct you. A Ponzi scheme has nothing at all in common with a Pyramid scheme; except both are illegal
Ralph: Actually they have quite a lot in common. The only difference is that with a ponzi scheme you give your money to a guy to invest (if that’s what you call it) for you while in a pyramid scheme you invest it yourself, in your own business (if that’s what you want to call it). Either way, they both rely on the concept of funneling money up the chain and relying on a broader and broader base to support the flow (which is unsustainable). There’s the difference for ya. And you’re saying they have NOTHING in common. HA!
To All the Send Out Cards people – Keith and I Had a nice chat on Facebook and he’s not really a bad guy. He just doesn’t like MLM. Everybody is entitled to their Opinion. He also makes money by creating controversy and views on his site so you can’t blame him really
And the guy that actually wrote the Article makes his money with the “Oflline Gold” Thing. (Selling Simple Online Services to Oflline businesses that don’t know they can do it themselves or outsource it for much cheaper). I would bet that neither of them has actually Tried SOC and Sent a card and probably don’t want to … lol
Everybody has their own interests and Agenda Including Soc people and there is nothing wrong with that. There is no need to defend Send Out Cards. We know we have a wonderful product and opportunity. You know how the old saying goes SW SW SW (Some Will, Some Won’t So What?). It really doesn’t matter what Keith (or anybody else) thinks. The SOC Opportunity isn’t for everybody ( although the product is) Instead of wasting time here go find someone who it IS right for
Jack Bastide
407-545-8020
Jack: You don’t know much about search engine marketing and PPC campaigns. Tell me how you’d go about building a keyword database. Would you do that by hand? One keyword at a time? You probably would. and because that’s how average people do it, they waste money and lots of time and, worst, they don’t even do it right and they don’t generate leads.
Keith for simple stuff I would just use the Google External Keyword Tool. Or something More Complex maybe Market Samurai or Keyword Elite. Or better yet just outsource it to somebody on Odesk or Elance. I’m not an SEO expert, nor do i play one on TV, but its not really Rocket Science .. Links and Title Tags. ,. Never ASSUME
What does this have to do with Send Out Cards anyway? lol
Jack
jack: Those would all be mistakes and you’ll be wasting your time trying. I use the keyword tool to look for keywords on a blog post. That works fine for little stuff, but not when building a whole local small business campaign. You made a very false claim about the ease in which local service businesses can build a PPC campaigns by themselves. There is a reason there are agencies for that sort of thing. Dennis worked for Yahoo for several years and was in charge of their entire online dating PPC spend. You think they’d hire anybody off the street to do that? Maybe just a regular joe who knows how to use the google keyword tool? hardly. Your answer demonstrates that you do not know SEM or SEO to the extent that would make you an expert. You ASSUME you do though. You know enough to perhaps promote a blog, that’s it. You’re right, there’s nothing too complicated about promoting a webpage. But that’s not what’s being done.
Keith … As I said earlier I am NOT an SEO Expert. But It’s not all that hard to Rank for Local Search terms like “Orlando DUI Attorney”. Turn on SEO Quake see how many links your competition has, and get more. Make sure your title tags have your keywords It’s a simple as that. If Dennis can Rank For “Attorney” Now we’re talking but that’s pretty much worthless because if somebody wants an Attorney they want somebody Local. I know the Drill Dude.. I have a friend who Does Local SEO and has a network of several thousands of sites for links. He wants me to sell for him but I’m having too much fun with my “Pyramid Scheme”
As Far as PPC goes I’m not an expert at that either but I can get somebody from the Phillipines to do it for me for Pennies ,, and they’re good
Some Local Seo “Experts” are worse scammers than MLMers
They are bleeding These Local businesses dry and getting them little Results. I’m not saying Dennis is doing this but when you throw stones be prepared for some of then to come back in your face
Jack
Jack: you’re not throwing any stones that are hitting. As much as you might think your friends and you know anything about the business of scaling (yes, I said scaling — doing it nationally and globally) local SEM to make it affordable and effective for the customer and profitable for an agency, You don’t. In fact, the software to do that is so complex that there hasn’t been anybody yet who’s done it. Dennis business is trying to do just that. Yes, people can find a few keywords and yes you can buy a few adds. That is NOT, I’ll repeat it again, what is being done here. Dennis is trying to SCALE the process globally. You show me anybody who can do that. Not you, not your friends, nobody. And, no, you can’t get quality PPC campaigns from the india or the phillipines. Sorry, that myth has been busted for a while. Don’t know where you’ve been.
Keith I actually have several friends that do this. One of them, David, has been doing this kind of stuff for many years and pretty much Spawned this Whole “Offline Gold” thing that all these johnny come lately “Im Gurus” are jumping into these days. He has a whole staff that does this. My Friend Steve has a network of 1000;s of sites and does this Nationally as well. Id rather not drop their last names here but you can ask me on Facebook if you want to know. There are some good people that do this stuff but there all also a lot of Scammers that are ripping people off. Sort of like MLM that you love so much
Here’s something interesting though: Your friend is trying to recruit people to sell his services on his website and making all kinds on income claims .. What is he one of those Pyramid Scammers? 
FROM HIS SITE : “Never done web marketing before? That’s okay. It’s not rocket science, but it does require a few weeks of training; a few days if you’re really focused” (TOLD YA IT WASN’T ROCKET SCIENCE! )
.
Jack
P.S. AND Yes , Of COURSE you can get Certified Adwords Professionals from the Phillipines. Just go to ODesk.com
Wow! Miss a day or two and I’m really far behind. I’m going to post in short multiple comments, as I have trouble with long posts, and the formatting here does not allow line skipping.
THE INCOME OPPORTUNITY:
It appears that we’ve reached an agreement that the average and median are equal when there are only two numbers. Median becomes important when there are more than two, as extremes on either end will skew the average. Median becomes more valuable to evaluate typical earnings, which for the vast majority of SOC people is very low.
I do have a possible explanation for the eagle conundrum: according to insiders, only two people have achieved that rank. Let’s assume the income disclosure is accurate. All pyramids start with one person. Perhaps the founder is an eagle; that would make at least 3 eagles, and account for the wide range between average and median at that level.
I don’t begrudge any company founder or CEO an executive salary. That might explain it, don’t you think?
Please re-examine the potential income opportunity for most folks, and how long it took them to get there. We only have percentages, and we don’t know what their total expenses are to maintain their participation. Many MLMers don’t realize how much the cost to play affects their net earnings, since it is so often added to their wages of a regular job, unless they have a good CPA to point this out to them (links already provided).
2 questions for you DooDilly,
#1)Do you to agree that if SOC wasn’t a MLM there would be a “Large” (not small) but large demand for SOC’s product or service (even if you yourself don’t like it)?
#2) After you answer that let me ask you, even if this is a MLM, does this change the demand of the product or service in the market?
Answers:
1. Probably not. There are numerous online companies that already offer the service. But I’m not a greeting card expert, and I do know that marketers are good at creating demand for just about anything. I also responded previously about businesses sending cards.
2. Definitely yes, but not in the way you may think. MLMs are in the recruiting business, and the product is always secondary. The more the company grows, the more this becomes self-evident. MLMs do not track wholesale vs. retail sales, and folks end up with product in their closet, or in your case unused cards or points. Online. After all, you have to pay to play in one form or another in an MLM, unless you simply purchase the product. Those folks are a tiny minority in number and in dollars relative to the IBOs, distributors, or whatever they may be called.
Keith… Your a smart internet guy… is there a way somehow to design a page on your site to discuss SOC? There are a lot of side conversations, and tons of points being made (and remade, and remade, and remade) because this comment section has gotten 100 times larger than the article and nobody is reading them… it takes too long but they still want to comment.
It’s just an idea, but it would be cool to have an official (yet positive) debate on SOC… and take it one point at a time. And then conclusions would be easier.
It’s your site though, and I don’t know much about internet marketing or how to drive profits up. The long comments might be good for business. If so, then keep it coming
@Keith – I took the Liberty of Putting the keywords “Send Out Cards” In My Name, It’s only fair if i am going to provide content for your site that I get a keyword rich link to my site right?
Doopy Woopy – I won’t answer for others as to the Income potential of SOC but I will answer for myself. After getting laid off from a Six Figure Computer Programming job I tried several “traditional” businesses including Flipping Houses, and failed miserably. With my back against the wall I put a sustained Focus into Send Out Cards and within 6 months I built it into a Full Time Income. I have NO JOB and have been doing SOC full time now for 5 years. Yes, I am unusual and most people won’t do this but only because they are not willing to put in the effort. So whether you are participating in this Business Opportunity or the competing Business Opportunity that that Author of this article is promoting on his site its still gonna take work. There’s no FREE LUNCH My friend
Jack Bastide
Executive – Send Out Cards
407-545-8020
On June 16, Jack said, “ I didn’t read all of this stuff so I don’t know what your beef with Send Out Cards is so I’ll just add my two cents and be gone.”
Since then you’ve posted 6 additional comments, including this gem, “He also makes money by creating controversy and views on his site so you can’t blame him really.”
If you had read the entire thread, and even glanced at his blog, you would KNOW that statement is false, as Keith pointed out ages ago. Keith responds to comments about key words and other off topic diversions when he is accused of all sorts of crimes and misdemeanors. Otherwise he stays on topic.
You’re polite, and you are with SOC (I’ve seen your posts on the MLM forum). Please reconsider derailing this topic and making false accusations like LC does. (MLM insider: Jack will know who I’m talking about—it’s irrelevant for everyone else)
Respectfully submitted,
Doo Dilly
Hethe: I would love to find a way to keep this on topic. I find it interesting that we got sidetracked about PPC. Didn’t mean to, really.
Hi DooDilly I missed you!
On the Eagle thing… No, we only have two eagles, so although it’s a nice thought the founder and CEO is an Eagle, it isn’t true. He doesn’t take part in the compensation plan.
On the response to question 1:
You don’t think people would like to send greeting cards from the web?? I don’t know the stats on how many cards are sent from web based printers but I do believe it’s VERY high, even if SOC is taken out of the number of cards sent. There is a high number of companies that do it, They’ve been around for a while and will probably still be around for awhile. So I guess the debate is over SOC (at least between me and you) if you don’t even recognize that the product/service can make money without being a MLM.
One example of a company that has been around for awhile I was told about 2 days ago when they had a commercial on TV (here in Nebraska). They are Moonpig.com and they have been doing pretty good from what I can tell. They started in 2000 in the UK and have since opened up printers in multiple countries (and now they just opened up one in the USA). In the UK they have capture 90% of the market of cards being sent from a computer (so says Wikipedia) and did 20.9 million in sales in 2009. This company has had a typical business growth cycle (huge investment upfront, was a million in debt, and now is profitable) but when comparing SOC to MoonPig I’d say almost everyone would choose SOC. Their costs are 6 times more expensive on their less expensive cards, 3.99 plus postage, and they can’t do so many things that SOC can do (templates, campaigns, handwritten cards, reminders, ect.).
I’m giving you this example to show there IS a market… you already said YOU don’t like the idea of using a service like this but PLEASE for the sake of my pride as a conversational/commenting/debater… tell me you recognize a large demand. I hate APPLE products and can’t imagine why people would like them… but I still recognize the demand in the market (I’ll pry get some beef for that comment).
I’ll just say that MOST people would say there is a demand and when a customer chooses to fulfill their needs and has a choice, they’ll choose the best company with respects to costs… SOC gives more value at 1/6 of the price.
On the response to questions #2:
Again, if you don’t recognize a value in the market before SOC than there really is no debating this question… BUT
I will agree with what you were trying to say. I hate the idea of the product being secondary and how most MLM’s out there offer no real value in the product. Most of them do grow bigger simply because of the income opportunity. I’m sure you as well as myself have been to SURPRISE opportunity meetings… and after about 20 minutes of money talk they spend 5 minutes on the product.
If I felt SOC had no value but the income potential I wouldn’t have touched it with a 10 foot pole. I originally bought without know it was an MLM and without anyone telling me about it. I seeked out a company like it for my past business and eventually (after weeks of trying to find a company that could do what SOC can do at a reasonable cost) found it and bought it.
I agree too on the having tons of wasted product with MLM is such a shame and sad for those who started those business… but again SOC is different. You DO get 100 free cards when you open an account but you do not half to be on an auto-order with SOC. We recommend that people who want to use SOC in their business or grow a business but you do not half to. Just like you don’t have to use it in your business or as a business. I’m pretty sure you’ll have questions on that and I know I can answer them but this is comment is pretty long already.
I’ll stop with this… don’t hate on SOC completely. You can hate on MLM if you want but to say that our product and service is a scam like so many MLM’s out there isn’t right because the product/service DOES have huge value and demand, just now with 100% of the population. I’d love to continue this conversation though….
Jack: Intentionally misspelling someones name (or at least the name they chose to use) was covered by Aristotle in The Art of Rhetoric under Ethos. I don’t think we’re trying to say it’s impossible to make money. Clearly there are a very few people who have made some. The problem, and the argument we keep coming back to, is that the method for making that money sells littler people up the river. You know the arguments against MLM, and they’ve always been the same. Yes, the evidence is pretty clear that not many people are making a living out of this, and that’s not good for people who want to try. But, the other, and bigger, issue is that the people who do make the money are doing it at the expense of the people who aren’t. You make money on people who signed up after you. They’ll make money on people signed up after them. It’s a legal pyramid. Legal or not, it’s still a pyramid, and that’s the issue, not that some people make money or they don’t.
No problem on the PPC… I actually liked it.
I was just thinking “If only everyone read everything” then they wouldn’t feel the need to repeat it.
I like the side conversations a little too. Some are really fun.
Few typos on my last comment…. Half –> Have
and said “Just NOW with 100% of the population” and I meant
“Just NOT with 100%…”
I should reread my long comments before I post.
@Keith One thing I don’t like is when somebody comes on a Forum with an Anonymous name. I’m an Open Book. I ALWAYS use my real name when posting because I have nothing to hide. So whether it’s Doopy Woopy OR Snoopy its just an anonymous poster on the Internet.
@DooDIlly I’m not sure who LC is? are you a Regular poster on MLM.com or a lurker? Have we spoken before?
@Keith (I cant believe I’m getting sucked into the MLM argument again lol) The CEO of BPO makes Millions. The workers on the Rigs make $8 an hour. In order to make Extraordinary Income you have to put in an extraordinary effort. Its like that in EVERY business. How many Employees Does Walmart have? How many are making as much as CEO ? NONE And they Never Will. MLM is the ONLY INDUSTRY in the world where you can start with a few hundred dollar investment and develop a Multi Six Figure Income. Want to talk about Making money off the backs of others? Lets talk about “Internet Marketing Gurus” Every week they come out with a New $997 Product which consists of outdated marketing Techniques that don’t work anymore. They blast it out to their list and a bunch of poor slobs buy it hoping to get rich on the Internet. Those are the REAL Scam artists
Jack Bastide
407-545-8020
P.S. I Should; start charging you for content
Jack: Yeah, that’s the argument you guys like to use, and that’s the argument we’ll go around about in circles forever about. The fact is that the method for making money is a pyramid, and pyramids aren’t like other businesses. If you can admit it’s a pyramid you can also admit that it’s nothing like a BP business model.
@Keith – I give up Bro.. Just give me a cell next to Madoff so we can plan our next Ponzi together
Jack
Hiya Hethe! I will respond to to your post very soon, as you’ve shown respect and good humor.
But first I have to respond to Jack. Notice, boys and girls, how Jack claimed he didn’t know who LC was, ignored the fact that he made a false allegation against Keith, and resorted to stating that, “ I ALWAYS use my real name when posting because I have nothing to hide. So whether it’s Doopy Woopy OR Snoopy its just an anonymous poster on the Internet.
@DooDIlly I’m not sure who LC is? are you a Regular poster on MLM.com or a lurker? Have we spoken before?”
According to your post here, you’ve been in the business going on 17 years, right?
http://208.86.2.42/showpost.php?p=553303&postcount=5
And you claim you don’t know who LC is? Everyone in the MLM business knows who he is, and so do you. In fact you are very familiar with his writings:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/31647109/Len-Clements-Slams-Scam-com-MLM-Whineyfesto
Betcha thought that thread vanished, didn’t you?
“This is funny. I was just reading this thread about everybody being trashed on Scam.com and was feeling kind of left out and irrelevant. I feel better now … I’ve made the big time!” Jack”
Posted by YOU on March 7, 2010, long after Len started his rant.
Jack said, “I give up Bro.” If wishes were horses… But since you’ve adopted Len’s style, I suspect you’ll be back, feigning ignorance that you didn’t recognize the initials, or some other excuse. And keep attacking me for remaining anonymous, make fun of my screen name, I couldn’t care less. I will continue to help Keith defend his post. Stay tuned…
Doo Dilly: This article is getting roughly 300 unique views every day. It really hit a nerve! It’s easy to see why this one post is being maligned by the SOC crowd as it’s the one negative one (and without ulterior motive) among a sea of fake posts and reviews that say nothing but wonderful things. I never would have guessed it would be this popular (or I guess unpopular). I honestly didn’t have MLMs on my radar at all before this.
Vanessa, looks like your the only person with any BRAINS in this community. For those who are using the pyramid word, please explain. You mean, your J.O.B.?
Doo Dilly … I didn’t claim not to know who Len Clements is. I just didn’t make the connection with “LC”. I don’t know Len personally although I know of him. I thought maybe you meant “CD” who I have had some lively political discussions with
Now I know who you were referring to and now i know who you are. Nothing Sinister here Brian 
Why don’t you just use the Doc Bunkum name here so you can brand yourself? I hope you aren’t going to start attacking me like you attack “LC” I’ve never done anything to you
Jack
.
BTW ,, the Original writer of this Article did it for two reasons. First of all he he has a service selling overpriced marketing services to small business owners. Knowing that Small business owners would type in the Keywords: “Send Out Cards” he figured he would capitalize on it and click on his link for “local advertising services” at the top of the article. Secondly he has a business opportunity where he recruits people to sell his Overpriced Marketing services and claims you can replace your Full time income selling for him (kind of ironic don’t ya think?). Him and Keith ( who isn’t really a bad guy, we’ve been talking on Facebook) are good friends as well evidenced by a link to the Authors Site in the blogroll of this Blog. So there is an agenda here .. there always is. Personally I thinking that feigning indignation and attacking something to create controversy and promote your own agenda is a scummy marketing practice but you see it done all the time.
Jack
We interrupt our regularly scheduled post to answer to another sendoutcard person who purports to show it is not a scam by using one of the oldest arguments in the multi-level marketing handbook: that your J.O.B is part of a pyramid. Keep on posting, as this will keep Keith’s blog high up on Google, and I’ll keep refuting your pithy comments with links to refute you.
For the uninitiated, J.O.B. Stands for “just over broke”. You know, your job that may offer the following benefits: health insurance, paid vacation/sick leave, retirement, and the like. Those low on the legal pyramid scam, er scheme, are independent contractors with no benefits at all. Remember, pyramidal shape of corporations vs. pyramid schemes are not equivalent: the lowest paid full timer at a company receives an hourly wage and benefits and does not pay to play.
http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html
http://www.vandruff.com/mlm_FAQ.html#1
http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/MLM.php
http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/
http://www.falseprofits.com/files/ccd44a7f7b79587cb5b233220fff0850-18.html
http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2009/11/09/consumers-looking-for-the-good-mlm/
http://www.mlmwatch.org/
Jack: I am good friends with Dennis. He’s been my best friend for 22 years. I don’t see what that has to do with the validity of the post itself. There is no ulterior motive here. This is a parenting blog; Dennis has written several articles for me as a guest poster. Each time, I ask him to relate something he knows to parenting. He wrote this from the angle of warning stay at home parents not to fall for the lure of quick money where it does not exist. I repeat, there is no extra motive here. It could have been anything; it just happened to be an anti-MLM article. And, yes, I linked it to his website, just like the many guest posts I’ve written for other people that link back to my site. I don’t see exactly what is wrong with linking to someone else. The agenda (if that’s what you want to call it) is to write a good article (one that is completely honest and heartfelt) and generate a link to his website. You’ll have to explain what is wrong with that because I don’t get it. Like I said, I’ve added my link to every guest post I’ve ever written. People who guest post here get a link to their site. Oh, and I meant to add — Dennis gives lectures and speeches all over the country — he gets his leads from those conferences after people hear him speak. They don’t read a parenting blog and then say to themselves “gee, I think I need a marketing agency”. The link to his site is purely for SEO reasons, NOT to generate leads. I think you know that, you’re just trying to malign Dennis (again, Ethos) which you believe will somehow make the MLM argument seem more attractive. There are 3 others devices you could choose from. It doesn’t always have to be an attack on someone’s credibility and trustworthyness.
@Keith with all due respect I highly doubt Dennis knows anything about Send Out Cards. I doubt if he has ever been involved in the business. I doubt if he has ever tried the service. So to malign something you know nothing about for SEO purposes (as you just admitted) is just kind of slimy in my opinion. That’s All.
Jack Bastide
407-545-8020
@Keith one more question … I have been with SOC for 5 Years and been in MLM since 1994 and know it like the back of my hand. I would like to write an article that gives insight into SOC from someone who actually has experience with it and knows of what they speak. Are you game? I promise to be honest and not paint too flowery of a picture
Jack Bastide
407-545-8020
jack: You don’t have to use drugs to know they’re bad. You don’t have to use SOC to know it’s an MLM. I wrote about the risks of gambling last week. You’re saying I shouldn’t have done that because I’m not a compulsive gambler? Dennis does have experience with the MLM sales pitch and how that works. You’re saying then that to write an article and insert a link is a bad thing? The big lie here is that Dennis knows nothing and is only finding a reason to insert a link. How do you know dennis knows nothing about MLMs? Your assertion is that you must be a part of an MLM to know ANYTHING about an MLM. Just like I guess I’d need to be a drug addict to know about drugs or a baker to know what cake tastes like? Come on, Jack. That’s not a valid argument.
@Keith put it this way: As somebody who has been Full time with SOC for years I think I am a tad more qualified to discuss it then somebody who has most likely never sent a card. As somebody who has been in MLM since 1994 and wrote a book on the subject that is on AMAZON I am a little more qualified to talk about MLM then somebody who is posting regurgitated Anti-MLM talking points. I made you an offer to write a Rebuttal article. If you want to take me up on it that’s cool ,, if not that’s fine too
Jack Bastide
407-545-8020
Jack: So you’re more qualified because you make money doing it? Ummm, no. The reason that argument is just as invalid is because this: Perhaps the person who doesn’t do MLM has found a better way of making money and getting through life. A person who is anti-MLM has just as much expertise in the subject of why NOT to do it as you think you have in why TO do it. Your argument hinges on the false notion that you must know better because you sell it. The fact though is that that argument goes two directions. A person can also know perfectly well why they AREN’T doing it and that makes them an expert in why you shouldn’t do MLM. In fact, someone who own a casino is the last person you should be asking for an impartial opinion about gambling. An MLM person is not an impartial observer to the practice of MLM. A person who has never done MLM, but who is a witness to their product is the BEST expert on MLM, not the person who is making money from it and stands to benefit from advocating it. Another way to put it. I’ll let you in on a little secret, Jack. I’ve made zero dollars off of this anti-mlm post. For as much traffic as this article gets, it doesn’t generate money for me. I make most of my money selling Hooked on Phonics and other homeschooling related products. The people who visit this MLM post are not interested in the rest of the site where I actually do my business. I’d like there to be crossover, but there isn’t because it’s a different bunch of people who don’t have the same interests. It’s just a weird little twist that was completely unexpected. Yes, it help my overal blog rankings and it does give me a little name recognition. That’s true. But, it is hardly worth my time to keep this up if it were about the money or the perceived interest I have in bashing SOC (which I really don’t; I’m just defending the Post’s right to exist and the Author’s motive and qualifications for doing it).
@Keith – I’m more qualified because I know the Industry. I’m not qualified to talk about owning a McDonald’s franchise because I have never owned one. I’m not qualified to talk about being a Heroin addict because I have never been one. I’m not qualified to talk about owning a casino because I have never owned one. But I am qualified to talk about MLM.
Do you want to take me up on my offer?
Jack Bastide
407-545-8020
Jack: and that’s the reason you’re NOT more qualified. You’re in and MLM. How can you be impartial? You’re qualified to talk about operating an MLM, sure. It makes you more qualified to sell it, sure. It doesn’t make you more qualified to talk about the pro’s and con’s though. In fact, it makes you less qualified. That’s the whole idea behind being impartial. This is why judges recuse themselves in trials that they have an interest in. The legal system knows that they can NOT be impartial.
@Keith so by that logic since I don’t offer SEO services to local businesses then I’m qualified to talk about how people offering SEO services to local businesses are gouging them? C’mon Bro that’s just silly.
I’m the FIRST to admit that MLM is no cake walk. In my book I talk about all the crap I’ve been through over the years in this industry. But I have also been though a lot of crap in real estate investing and “Traditional” business as well. I will make the offer one more time. If you want THE TRUTH from someone who has been there and done that in MLM I will tell the story. I have stories that will make your hair curl about this industry. But i also have had some very positive experiences as well and I will tell BOTH IF you are afraid to know the truth I will understand..
Jack Bastide
407-545-8020
Jack: I never said you you weren’t entitled to your opinion. I said you were wrong. You can talk about SEO services all you want. If you’ll remember though, our conversation revolved around how you were wrong about what services Dennis offered. I never said (at least that I remember) that you don’t know what you’re talking about BECAUSE you don’t do it. I said you didn’t know what you were talking about and that you were wrong. I never gave a reason.
If I ever decide to split this subject away from the overreaching theme of this blog (which is parenting) then I’ll let anybody talk. Don’t tell me I’m afraid of the truth — that’s another silly rhetorical tact. I honestly don’t have a problem giving everybody their say because I recognize that people have genuine disagreements about what the truth is. I have my version and you have yours. When everybody decides for themselves then they’ll have their own, too. That’s how it goes. But, in the mean time, I don’t want to make this blog all about MLM. I might might this whole thread into a Forum. When I do that, then you can be a moderator and you can have complete freedom to say whatever you like. The reason I don’t want it right now has nothing to do with being afraid of the truth, it simply because I don’t want MLM to swallow up the blog. You’ve read a few of my other articles so you know that it was never my intention for this to grow so huge.
@Keith OK man Its been fun. You are a worthy opponent
I wish you luck with your blog and everything else. I don’t think there’s really anything more I can say that hasn’t been said
Jack
“Doo Dilly … Now I know who you were referring to and now i know who you are. Why don’t you just use the Doc Bunkum name here so you can brand yourself? I hope you aren’t going to start attacking me like you attack “LC” I’ve never done anything to you.”
Jack
Cute, Jackaroo, cute.
Regular Inspector Cluzo, aren’t you?
Fail!
“Doo Dilly” ain’t Bunky, and Bunky ain’t “Doo Dilly”.
I know I probably won’t change your mind on that though. Because from what I’ve seen of your posts on mlm.com, you seem like the type of guy who still believes there’s a Santa Clause and that the Easter Bunny is real.
Doc Bunkum´s last blog ..Okay, Now I’m Really Pissed!
Thanks Doc! I do ‘know’ Doc by reading his posts on forums-we have never met. Before we leave Jack, one should go back and re-read his posts. From what I can gather, sendoutcards started in 2004, and Jack become involved the same year, or the year after… but no matter.
That means he got in on the ground floor, despite his quote, “ I would say look for a company that is at least 3, and preferably 5 years old and has all the bugs worked out. Don’t fall for the “Get in Now” hype.”
http://ezinearticles.com/?Pre-Launch-MLM—Holy-Grail-Or-Nightmare?&id=1567547
The exception, I guess, is getting in REALLY REALLY early. I don’t know, nor do I really care what his position at sendoutcards is. What I do know is this: he vacillated between polite posts and attacking the motives of Keith, Dennis, and myself. He tried to derail the thread with off topic nonsense. And I lost track of how many times he said goodbye and came back.
This is what happens when you become obsessed with an unethical business, folks. How many of you would spend a lot of time defending your company online in the manner Jack did? I don’t have to criticize him: his words speak volumes.
Now, does anyone want to get back to truly discussing this little MLM? If Hethe is still reading and wants to ask a few simple questions in a short post, I’ll be glad to chime back in. (If you’re in Jack’s downline, Hethe, I hope you’re pretty far removed)
@Doc, I would NEVER recommend joining a Startup. Most of them Fail. I got VERY lucky with SOC but nobody has a Crystal ball. Who would have thought a little Greeting card company would have the kid of success we have? We are on track for $100 Million in Sales this year which is double what we did last year .. and this is supposed to be a recession. So yeah I got on early and luckily the company has done very well . but that is the exception, not the rule. I’m all up for a civil discussion here, so if you can keep it civil that’s cool.
Jack Bastide
MLM – Network Marketing – Jack Bastide´s last blog ..Cheap MLM Leads
“Sadly, few people get the big picture about multi-level marketing schemes. For the most part, MLMs are all the same scheme! From old established schemes like Amway to new startups like the Trump Network, these are the same flim flam in different clothing. One MLM may sell vitamins while another sells weight loss herbs. One sells legal services insurance and another fruit juice. But all of them, in reality, sell the exactly the same product: an endless chain income promise. MLMs are all in the “business opportunity” business, not “pills, potions and lotions.” And all of them sell the same “opportunity”, which is the chance to sell the “opportunity” to others who sell the same opportunity, forever and ever. Amen.
The income promise is what they all sell, and their promises of income are always based on the same compensation plan: the endless recruitment chain.”
http://www.falseprofits.com/files/ccd44a7f7b79587cb5b233220fff0850-18.html
I think this video that I found supports your stance. However, what also is important to remember is that working for a corporation is also a pyramid scheme.
At least listen to the first minute and a half. Pretty enlightening.
Sharon´s last blog ..Syntra 5 Review – Does It Really Work?
Sorry, Sharon. I’m not going to entertain the idea that a normal company is a pyramid scheme. American airlines does not sustain itself by growing at the bottom of the pyramid. In fact, when they cut employees at the bottom they become more efficient and make MORE money, not less. A pyramid only sustains itself and grows by expanding at the bottom. It must get bigger or the people at the bottom will make NO money, not a little or less, NONE. The people at the bottom can only make money if another layer grows underneath them. A baggage handler at American Airlines has a job to do that supports the company, and he get’s paid 15 bucks an hour to do it. The people at the bottom of a pyramid scheme have no function for the company other than to sell more people on the system. They don’t throw bags, they don’t punch tickets. They only funnel money to the top and sign more people up at the bottom. That’s it. There is a reason that MLM’s are classified differently than other businesses by the government. It’s because they are different. Jeesh.
“So the MLM “industry” becomes a shell game. It keeps consumers guessing which shells have the fraud beans underneath and which ones have the “legitimate” beans. Consumers keep picking the frauds but still believe that most MLM shells have legitimate beans underneath. Why do they continue to believe most MLMs are good, even while they keep finding fraud beans?
For one thing, the MLMs say so. All the MLM warns consumers about others that they say are scams, but reassure them that they are not among those fraudulent MLMs. The media also tell consumers that “multi-level marketing” is legitimate” but then also always cautions them against the many scams within the MLM ranks. They never tell consumers which ones are the scams. More shell games.
Another reason people miss the big picture and keep picking MLM shells with fraud beans underneath: they are told that if the scheme sells a product, it is automatically legitimate! Only schemes that charge large upfront “fees” are scams, they are told, even by the likes of the Better Business Bureau. But, they are assured, if the MLM charges you for products and marketing materials, it’s legit. This is utterly false and dangerously misleading, but many reporters and BBB offices are merely repeating what the MLM industry tells them.”
“In fact, no MLMs charge large upfront fees any more. They now use a different way to get your money and transfer it to the the schemers at the top of the recruiting chain. Nearly all the money they get now, whether upfront or monthly, comes from the salespeople’s own purchases of “products” (overpriced) and “marketing materials” (worthless). Most consumers pay and pay and pay and don’t’ ever earn a dime in income but they believe it was all legitimate (even though they lost money) because they purchased products (at absurdly high prices and in order to qualify for commissions they never got), rather than paid “fees.” Here’s the MLM trick: the purchases are the infamous “fees” in disguise!
And then there is the sad and outrageous role of our Federal Trade Commission (FTC), which was corrupted by lobbyists and campaign contributions. In 2000, it virtually stopped investigating and prosecuting MLMs. This has given MLMs the aura of legality. MLMs now routinely use the very same defense that fraudster Bernard Madoff employed so successfully for years. When questioned about his scheme, he would say, “How could I be running a scam if the government is not even investigating me and has never prosecuted me?” So, too, MLMs use the lack of law enforcement as part of their false claim of legitimacy and the FTC’s inaction becomes a tool of the fraud.”
http://www.falseprofits.com/files/ccd44a7f7b79587cb5b233220fff0850-18.html
It’s been 7 months since I wrote this original article. There are 279 comments on this article, now totaling over a hundred thousand words. As you can see, there is enough to write a book here, as nearly all angles, legitimate and spurious have been covered. The SOC Kool-Aid drinkers have swarmed in predictable defense– and those without the gift of clear reasoning or high school grammar resort to name calling and diversion. Entertaining, yet painful to see people attack Keith, who is a daddly blogger who graciously hosted this conversation at his community. It’s clearly marked at the top of the article who the author is– it’s not Keith. It’s a guest blogger– me. I could have chosen to analyze any MLM scheme, but Send Out Cards readily published their numbers, so it was an interesting exercise in math. Since then, SOC has published the 2010 figures. Not much has changed. There are now a few “Eagles”– 0.0001 to be exact. That’s 0.01%, which is 1% of 1%, no matter how you justify it (“the cards are great”, “people aren’t doing it to get rich”, “all success requires hard work”, “all advertising is misleading, so ours is therefore okay”, and every other flavor). But run and hide from math as you may, it’s hard to argue the cold, hard math. SOC notes that the average (arithmetic mean) income last year was $457.51, while the median was only $20. That’s $1.67 a month or about a nickel a day. For those who have remember high school stats, the arithmetic mean is much higher than the median because there are a few folks at the top of the pyramid that skew the average. Were I more enterprising, I’d add in a cartoon here with two Egyptians standing in front of the Great Pyramids– one remarking, “This is NOT a pyramid scheme! It’s Send Out Bricks!” But my artistic skills are not what they once were, so you’ll have to use your imagination. Do I hate Send Out Cards or have a vendetta against them? Hardly. I’m sure the cards are high quality and that many people honestly appreciate the personal touch amidst the junk mail and bills in their mailboxes. Are they a ponzi scheme? No, because there are is some product sold– just not that much. Can someone make money here? Absolutely, especially if they know how to mobile others with “get rick quick” talk, get in on the “ground floor”, and have a bit of luck. For the rest of you, start your own pyramid scheme and get a bunch of folks under you. Many thanks to Doo Dilly (“due diligence”, for those who don’t know) and Keith for answering the posts. I personally feel that some of the folks who jump in and attack us with their poor English and muddy thinking serve only to expose themselves as uneducated. Thus, no need to defend against them– they don’t have any points of substance (name-calling doesn’t count or high school cafeteria bravado of “Are you sure you can handle the truth?”. Sadly, I believe the original post, given the current trajectory, will grow to 1,000 comments sometime before the end of the year. If you were Keith and Doo Dilly, would you take the time to answer these mindless SOC die hards who keep repeating old, worn-out arguments, ignore them, or maybe start up new topics?
Dennis Yu´s last blog ..Facebook Mobile– text messaging service is best!
Thanks for the update, Dennis.
Great work!
I started a thread over on Quatloos! about your article – (with the proper credits and links to your site of course).
(I used your original title – I’m not too creative!)
http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5998
Doc Bunkum´s last blog ..Total Clown Shit
There is only one problem to your analysis…..Many of those people not making an income have no desire to make an income…plain and simple. Many of them only want to send cards and not build a business. How do I know that? Because I am an SOC distributor, and a number of people I have gotten into SOC have told me straight out that they just want to use the cards for their businesses. In fact, a couple of them have referred others to me rather than try to build a business themselves. Does that make SOC a scam? Not in my way of looking at things.
I got involved with SOC because, among other things, I send out about 800-900 cards a year just at the holiday time. When I was buying the cards from one of the big card publishing houses that market to businesses, I was spending anywhere from $1.25-$1.50 per card plus postage….And I had to hand sign every one of them, stuff them in envelopes, address the envelopes, seal the envelopes, and then put stamps on. For me and an assistant that was about a 1 1/2-2 day process. Now the entire process takes about 30-60 minutes, and each card costs me $.93 plus postage. Even if you figure in the full cost of my membership, it makes the cost for the year about $1.40 per card, but the time savings alone more than made up for that. And now every year I am also saving about $300-$400 on sending the cards this way vs. buying them and doing them the old way. But I also use the cards for a lot of other things. Every client gets a card thanking them for choosing my office. That is not something that I would ever do (and never had done) if I had to go out and buy the cards, address them, etc. And that $.93 card has been worth a ton of goodwill.
Now the fact that I can show this to other people, and if they use it, make some money is just a bonus for me. And without working it really hard, I have gotten to a place where I average about $100 in income per month. Not enough to leave my law practice by a long shot…but enough to basically pay for the cards I am using throughout the year. Does that make this a scam? Not in my way of thinking.
I am wise enough to know that most people do not make a fulltime living in any MLM or network marketing company. But why does that make it a scam. I have never shown this to anyone as a way to make a huge income. As in most MLM’s there will be the few that do, but the majority don’t. I know that, and I accept that. But I know that Hallmark and American Greetings don’t pay me anything when I tell someone to buy one of their cards. So if the use of SOC is economical for me both in terms of dollars spent and time saved, what is wrong with that? And if they pay me a few bucks for showing other people how this might benefit their business, what is wrong with that? You see, I know that I, and many others in SOC don’t go around telling people how much they can make being a SendOutCards distributor. To the contrary, I tell them how this can benefit their businesses, which I truly believe it can (people love to get a personalized card rather than an ecard or some advertising in the mail). And if sending cards helps to get you new customers or even just keep the ones you have, then where is the scam in that? And then I just share with them that there is a way to make some money if they would like to see that part of things….and some do, and some don’t and I am fine either way.
It sounds to me as if your definition of a scam is a business where people don’t make a lot of money. But if people are not using SOC as a business to do that, but rather are using it in conjunction with their already established business, where is the scam in that?
Andy Steiker
Andy: By definition a pyramid relies on an expanding base to make money for the levels above. That alone makes it a scam no matter how much money is being made (or not made). By definition the people at the bottom pay you and receive nothing in return until they get someone else on a lower rung to pay them. It’s surprising you don’t see that as un-ethical (which it most certainly is). Leave every other argument aside, and what’s left is a pyramid. It’s really hard to ethically justify a pyramid model. But, of course you can always cloud the issue with irrelevancies and hope everyone just ignores the ugly truth, that the people at the bottom will always make worse than nothing (not min-wage, not sweat show wages, not even nothing — they actually pay you for the privilege of making nothing).
Keith,
Unfortunately, your definition of “pyramid” doesn’t cut it. By definition, in a pyramid, the person at the top makes the most money. That is not necessarily the case with any legitimate MLM. If you use your analysis, then all of corporate America is really based on a pyramid model. After all, if you work at GM on the assembly line, your supervisor (and there are less of them) makes more than you, and his supervisor makes more than him….etc. Until you get to the top of the pyramid…..and at the top is the CEO who makes more than anyone below him…..and who continues to make more and more as the company grows.
But let’s look at SOC in particular. You ignored one very important thing. If I sign up to use SOC as nothing more than a service, with no intention of making any money….And I agree to pay the membership fee, be it $100 or $400 or any of the plans in between because I feel that the service is well worth it, yes someone is going to make some money. But where am I being hurt? If I like the service they offer along with the product they provide, and I am willing to pay a membership fee WITH NO EXPECTATION of earning any money, then where am I hurt? Are you saying that I am hurt because someone else is making money on selling me the product and the service? Let’s look at Bally’s gyms for example. If you want to be a member of the gym, you pay a membership fee, and perhaps you even sign a contract obligating you to a certain number of months. Someone or some people make money on the membership, but after all, isn’t that their job. Is it a scam because I purchase a membership and someone else is making money on it….even though I may never use my membership? Hardly….And whether I use my membership or not is up to me.
So it is the same with SOC. You are premising your position on the supposition that everyone who joins SOC thinks they are going to make money….and that is not the truth. Most people join to use the service. They don’t see it as a business for themselves. They pay x number of dollars to be a member who can use the product and service….period. Does the person who introduced them to SOC make a commission? Absolutely….and does the person above him/her make a commission….again, absolutely….But so what? If I am buying the service and the product to use the service and product and not to make a living, and I think the price is reasonable, do I care who makes money on it? Why should I? Where is the scam in that?
I will agree however, that if this is shown only for the purpose to get someone to sign up whether they can use the service or not, then the distributor is not being honest. When I was shown SendOutCards, my immediate reaction is that the fee was worth it even if I choose not to build a business because it is a service I could use to my advantage….In other words, I did a cost-benefits analysis and determined that if I did not even try to build a business, the $300 that I paid was worth it for the service and product I was getting. I wasn’t paying anyone “for the privilege of making nothing,” because I signed up not necessarily to be a part of the business but rather to use their product and service. I paid my $300 for the right to use the SOC system. I knew what I was paying for and I was not expecting to make money. I did see that there was an opportunity to make money if I chose to try to build a business, but that was secondary to me.
I will agree with you on one thing….if the only purpose for joining SOC is because you are told how much money you can make, then this is not something you should be doing…I would agree. But if you are shown the product/service and the start up fee is worth it to you whether you make a penny or not, then what is the problem? Where is the scam? If you want to respond back, please address that specific issue rather than just talk about how this is a pyramid and people are being scammed. You are good at saying that ignoring that for many people, they are willing to just pay for the service without even looking at the business model. If they are in that position, where is the scam?
Andy Steiker
Andy: Don’t be stupid. A real business is not a pyramid. People at the bottom make a salary or get paid commission REGARDLESS IF THEY GET SOMEONE ELSE TO SELL UNDER THEM! That argument isn’t going to fly here.
Keith, either you have been burnt badly by an MLM. of you just have nothing to do with your time. to spend soooo much time typing and retyping the same old argument. If you don’t like SOC, just go away and do something else. The people that join SOC are mostly people who, like myself just want to use the service. If you don’t agree with their systems etc, just go do something else. I see no point to this endless tirade of your same old argument over and over.
Go find something else to do with your time and leave us SOC users alone.
Okay, so Andy is representing Soc as a business builder for those looking for marketing help.
What about your 6 year tenure in Melaleuca ? (“Wellness” MLM) What exactly was that for?
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andy-steiker/5/492/285
Ian: Why do you suppose I keep typing the same argument over and over? Could it be because idiots have a problem listening and keep talking nonsense? Trust me, I don’t want to repeat myself, buuuuut when someone obfuscates and refuses to acknowledge even a basic concept like what is a pyramid… well, I have to repeat myself. Oh, speaking of wasting time. See this isn’t a waste of time. I run a blog which happens to be somewhat hard work. What are you doing? Trolling? Who’s wasting their time?
HAHAHA! Doo Dilly. Look what you found! Isn’t it amazing what people will say to get someone else to sell for them?
I own an 18 hole golf course. I utilize Send Out Cards strictly for 1 to 1 relationship building between myself/ golf course and members …… and folks who bring golf outings to my facility. SOC is the most cost effective way ….money-wise and timewise …for me to reach out to my golf course customers and drop them a note ( either happy birthday, or a great big thank you and a small gift for outing coordinators). It’s an easy, painless, effortless way for a busy business person to send a customized greeting card…….and it’s about a third of the price of a Hallmark Card, not to mention the time it takes to go find the damned card.
MLM is a legitimate marketing plan also known in other industries as an override commission structure and differs from pyramid specifically because there is a legitimate product being sold to end customers. SOC differs from many other programs in that it does have a very viable Retail program as well with residual commissions gained from the sale of cards to end consumers, and yes the more distributors you have selling for you the more override commissions are made…
however, there can be a very nice income generated in the SOC system without recruiting a single person. Reality is that the facts you keep stating only show that 95% of the folks are not willing to work the system in order to be in the top 5%, NOT that it is a scam. If 5% can do it ….. it can be done by anyone willing to work.
Mike: What? You’re trying to say it’s legitimate because you re-named it (with a term by the way that is used in the financial industry and is NOT synonymous)? So are you trying to argue that SOC is not a pyramid? Tell me exactly what your argument is because it SOUNDS like you’ve justified the structure by re-naming it. That would be a casuist’s argument. I’m sure it sounds nice to try to relate your industry to one that is actually legitimate in hopes of piggybacking off of it, but your moral reasoning here is seriously flawed. Legality does not equal morality. No, the fact that you can get away with something does not make it right. And you certainly won’t be able to hide behind trying to sneakily re-defining what you do — that might work elsewhere (perhaps with your chosen mark {or lead as you call them}), but not here.
ONCE AGAIN, in case anyone is reading impaired:
Keith is a blogger who mostly writes about parenting. As far as I know, he has allowed a guest writer to post 3 articles on 2 different MLMs.
Bloggers can delete articles, and control responses. They can close comments or disable them; they can respond or not respond.
Keith has chosen to respond to all of the SOC people, as have I. Why, you may ask? (I speak for myself only and make observations) If you actually read the responses, they are mostly an attempt to either defend ad hominem attacks, correct misleading or false replies, and educate readers about MLMs.
As I disclosed ages ago: I have never been in sales or in an MLM. But I have been researching the industry for some time now.
There is hardly an MLM on the planet that doesn’t try to persuade folks that they have a superior or new product, at a better or more valuable price. That’s the bait.
Then why don’t they simply start a company that offers the product without the MLM structure? Because they can’t or won’t be profitable. All MLMs operate on the endless recruiting of people into their pyramid, without regard to market demand.
As the company grows, and more people join, the churn rate increases as folks drop out. Many actually lose money when they are unable to sell or recruit, or spend money on conventions, meetings, web sites, and promotional materials.
Doo Dilly and Keith,
Thanks for fighting the MLM zealots– they are an insistent bunch, using all the same rhetorical techniques to dress up cow manure as high energy, organic fertilizer. Rather than discuss the very statistics that Send Out Cards themselves publishes, they resort to ad hominem attacks. Their tactics, while noble, don’t make them evil– just uninformed. And certainly there is nothing wrong with buying cards if you are actually doing so for the product– a product if as good as reputed, would sell itself directly without a pyramid structure (or whatever euphemistic name you give for many levels of people shaped in a triangle-like arrangement).
These are garden variety schemes. Now I want to show you a scheme that was conceived to take advantage of consumers that are unwittingly sharing their data on social networks, selling that data without knowledge or permission of those very users. They are trying to, but unsuccessfully, power collection agencies (which are legal) and data sellers (which perhaps are not, if you go by FTC filings). The company name is PeekYou and they profit on your data. The founder, Michael Hussey, is an oft-sued entrepreneur who is responsible for things like the Obama Ape incident– putting up pictures of Michelle Obama as an ape, much to his amusement. Watch for details coming soon.
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First of all, Keith, I am not in Send Out Cards, but, like thousands of other retail customers across the country, I and my hundreds of sales people do use it as a relationship marketing tool. I don’t know what kind of credentials you even have to be commenting on this particular issue, but I have a BBA in Marketing from the University of Texas and have been a National Sales and Marketing Manager for Fortune 500 corps for the last 20 years, so don’t try to call me out on something that you don’t have any credentials on. This particular Network Marketing system does have a very valid product that stands alone even without the MLM structure. There are thousands of end users around the country that use the product and the system without working the network marketing program at all, and the Send Out Cards produces millions of dollars in cards each year …. all for end users. Many distributors do not work the MLM program at all and simply have many customers who purchase cards for personal and business purposes for which they make a commisssion or retail profit. My company purchases thousands of cards for our sales force across the country from a distributor. That distributor makes a profit off of each card we send. He has other distributors, under him, who also work this relationship marketing part of the business. Each of them also have many business clients who send cards to their own personal customers ( sales teams, real estate agents, insurance agents, service companies, etc. They all make a profit off of each card sent and their upline makes an override as well. Obviously, since you don’t understand this, this is called an override commission structure and has nothing to do with any kind of a “pyramid scheme”. Since, again, you obviously do not understand, your “pyramid scheme” occurs when money can ONLY be made from recruiting others. Although their is money paid for recruiting and training other distributors, the primary long-term income is produced thru the sale of cards to end users. Many distributors make a nice income without ever recruiting a single person by concentrating their effort on the retail and override commissions available. There are other companies who fit your description, but whether you want to admit it or not …. you are wrong about this one !!
Mike Guggenbickler is a garden variety MLM troll. Let’s discuss the typical techniques that he uses: – Because he got a degree in marketing, everything he says must be true. Do I mention that I’m a member of MENSA and went to school at the London School of Economics as well as SMU? Not necessary– the weight of your arguments should stand alone. Same thing with those folks who claim to be accomplished business professionals, but can’t master basic grammar. – It’s not MLM, it’s an “override commission”. There are no more retarded people– just “mentally challenged folks. They’re not garbage collectors– just sanitation engineers. When there is a chain of people getting paid upon recruitment of others in a hierarchical structure, what do you call that? A pure pyramid scheme (also known as a Ponzi scheme) perpetuates by funding current payouts from future enrollments. Send Out Cards doesn’t completely fit that definition– we have made that clear, for the folks who do care to read carefully or have sufficient reading comprehension levels. – Mike is not in the MLM industry. He’s in an industry called Personal Contact Marketing– that’s the name of his company. This is America, folks– you can do what you want and call it whatever you want, provided it is legal. And these tactics, though not ethics, are fully legal. – If you like the cards, buy them. Nothing wrong with that. I have no problem with anyone who enjoys a product– but I do have a problem with the get rich quick snake oil sellers. They are not selling a product, but a vacuous dream that preys upon the greed and financial situations of folks who should know better. Last I checked, this article ranks #2 on a Google search for “Send Out Cards”. #1 is the company itself. You’ll have to ask yourself why that is. Keith Wilcox is not the author, for those MLM kool aid drinkers that don’t or can’t read. I am the author– and the article was an analysis of the very data that Send Out Cards put out themselves. The math is simple and inarguable, even if you don’t happen to like what it says. If you are a forum troll and are here “defending” MLM, why don’t you stop right now and go out and start making money, versus arguing here? You’re just causing this blog to get more traffic. You’ve got better things to do, right? For any of those who want to share a positive story– how they succeeded, please respond here. It’s a lot harder to be actually successful than to try to tear down others. How’s that for making the world a better place?
Dennis Yu´s last blog ..Facebook Pages vs Groups– what’s the difference
Mike: Awwwww, that’s so cute. you have a degree. Oh, and look at that! You’re also a middle manager. You know, you’re right. Your BA and your regular job should DEFINITELY make you more qualified than me. In fact, my two degrees and similar time in an office are totally irrelevant in contrast to your degree from THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS (I put that in caps because of it’s importance). Are you seriously hanging you hat on a degree from the University of Texas? Sure, it’s a fine university. Just keep in mind, Mike, that bragging about it is sorta like my neighbor who brags about his BMW 325i. Yeah, it’s a good car. But so what? A million people have that car and the fact that he’s bragging about it means he doesn’t have much else to brag about. Come back when you’re driving an Aston.
Okay, okay. If you’ll allow me to just explain something to your highness for a second here. An override commission is a separate concept than a pyramid scheme. A pyramid is a STRUCTURE
while a commission is an INCENTIVE. An override commission is an extra payment that a manager (for instance) will make on the sales of those under him. Sounds like a pyramid scheme, right? Wrong! The structure of an financial institution is NOT a pyramid scheme. They do not spend their days looking for an endless supply of people to sign up underneath them. Their focus is on sales volume, and they get paid a commission on the VOLUME of PRODUCT they sell. I repeat, the incentive of an override commission is in the product itself. Agents do not recruit other agents, hiring managers hire more agents. That is the reason that a pyramid scheme has a special name (Multi Level Marketing). Now, pay attention, Mike. Go back and read what we anti-MLM people are actually saying. The STRUCTURE of a pyramid scheme is dishonest because it focuses on the endless recruitment of subordinates and only has a secondary concern for selling actual product.
I should also point out that degrees are pretty much only worth the paper they’re written on. It’s people’s perception of the degree that matters, not necessarily what’s actually in anybody’s head. Mike: You want everybody to believe that your degree gives you authority. It just doesn’t. Go ask all the experts out there who have no degree at all. Put your degree back up on the wall and stop staring it. It doesn’t impress anybody.
Dennis: So you found the page for PCM. If you follow the clues, it looks like a woman with the same last name and same phone number sells— wait for it—
sendoutcards.
Doo Dilly– that is awesome! The guy pretending he is not a SOC fanatic is exposed in full glory, after arguing until he’s red in the face that he’s not.
Dennis Yu´s last blog ..Facebook Pages vs Groups– what’s the difference
I am meeting with a Send Out Card person this week. I met one of them at a Chamber of Commerce event. When I looked at their website I thought it looked like a pyramid scheme. I goggled them and found this blog. The person I am meeting with wouldn’t exactly tell me what we were meeting for. Seems suspicious to me.
Stephanie: It is a pyramid scheme. As you can tell from all these insane comments, the SOC people are rather rabid if you call it what it is — a pyramid scheme. Keep in mind that this person you’re meeting sees you as a target. You’re his lead, and if you sign up, it’s in his best interest, not yours. He’ll tell you anything because he wants more downline (that’d be you). He (or she) has no incentive to tell you the truth. If you press him about the pyramid scheme thing he’ll get slippery, start calling it an override commission, or he’ll tell you ALL businesses are pyramids because thats how they’re shaped (nevermind that they don’t rely on expanding bases to stay in business). Read some of the comments here and you’ll see how hard they try to cover the truth. It’s comical really. Good luck, Stephanie!
BlueSuitCards.com?
$5 per card plus postage????? Really?
Jeff Gitomer has a non MLM card sending service that sends a real card for $2.69 plus postage and believe it or not, SOC can send a single card with zero upfront other than the cost of a single card for $2.99 and that includes postage!
Because I am in sales (Food Service) and I have tons of customers and tons of prospects, I need to send 20-40 cards per month so someone please tell me a service that can send a physical greeting card, (not a cheap and thoughtless e-card) in the US mail from a high speed connection for as little as 0.62 cents plus postage…..I need to do something different from sending card by hand! I can hardly keep up!
After weeks of research, it appears that overall, SOC has the lowest price point.
I figured this as I sent about 700 cards last year by hand including Holiday Cards. So the one time investment to get SOC’s lowest price still looks like a great deal.
Am I missing something here? I will send an average of 7,000 greeting cards in the next 10 years as most sales reps need to so let me know…THANKS!
Jim: You are a Sendout Cards Senior Manager. You don’t use the cards simply to send to clients. Don’t misrepresent who you are. That’s dishonest. Yes, you’re in the food service industry (Vienna Beef), but that’s not why you are a distributor and why you gave a speech at the Super Saturday Success Event entitled How to Get a New Distributor Up-to-Speed. It would help this discussion if I didn’t have to reveal your motives for you. I accept that you might genuinely think SOC is a great product and company. You just lose all credibility when it’s discovered that you stand to profit from people believing you’re just looking out for their businesses and not that you want them to sign up because you make money on it.
Keith,
Would you please answer Jim’s question?
He asked for you to name another service for sending out physical greeting cards that will meet the quality, pricing and convenience of Send Out Cards. I have the same question and would like an answer. Thanks in advance for your response.
William
William: This is not an article on the best, least expensive service for sending out cards for business owners, therefore no answer is required.
Read this article and Keith’s other article on SOC again: it should be self-evident why no answer is likely to be forthcoming.
Most illuminating is Ron T’s reply on June 21, 2010 on what was the first of two articles on sendoutcards.
Thanks for the positive comment about SOC. I am a chiropractor and run my own small office. In the six years that I’ve been in business I was never able to send out birthday cards or seasonal greetings; it was too much in addition to the requirements of the practice. When you figure in the cost of manpower, the cost of the cards, travel time, maintaing the mailing lists, and postage, SOC has made this easy and affordable (even more so since I signed up as a wholesale dealer). I’m not actively selling the program but I promote it every chance I get as it has allowed me an easy way to keep in touch with my patients and to do so with a personal touch. I’ve also signed up my husband under my account. Together we have a part-time/seasonal diving business. At the beginning of the season this year we sent one “thanks for your business” mailing to his clients (only 15 at the time!). The response generated over $4,000.00 in new income from referrals. SOC has earned its keep with this girl. Rebecca Oliver, DC
Rebecca: Thanks for your comment. But, I have to question how you “weren’t able” to send birthday cards and seasonal greetings when you could have easily printed them from your computer (you can buy high quality paper for that). And, if you had so many that you couldn’t print them yourself, then you certainly didn’t personalize them. Why not just buy in bulk? You say you sent 15 at a time. It’s not hard to buy 15 cards and personalize them with real handwriting. They sell boxes of cards for quite cheap at target and walmart (cheaper than 60 cents per card). In fact, I got a box of a dozen cards at target for 2.50 last week. that 4,000 dollars you mention might have been even more if it had been your ink from your pen that wrote the note.
Wow. I thought this blog was closed on comments. I had a thought as I read the most recent posts, since I think we’ve gotten past the validity of the service of SOC (I don’t think anyone will say it isn’t a good service or is over priced at this point), and the main thing being argued upon is SOC as an income opportunity. I am (as you know) a distributor in SOC and personally don’t consider someone really looking to make money with this business unless they can at least attain the level of Manager, for two reasons, 1) The qualifications to getting to Manager is really low and most anyone can do it 2) At the level of Manager is where the money can really begin paying you (because of the big raises you get once you are there). If you take a second look at the stats posted in this article, I don’t think they look that bad at all, IF you consider the only people who are looking to make money with SOC are at Manager or above. In fact, I think the stats look really good! Kind of like a Realtor who got their license but never sold a house or an Insurance agent who left the business before their 1 year anniversary. I’m curious to hear what the main three think about the stats if they take that into consideration (Doo Dilly, Keith, and Dennis).
wow keith is a annoying he’s only looking at this product as a means to make money. if you actually utilize the product for its worth then it actually doubles your income. people enjoy receiving cards. It simplifies peoples card sending needs, it requires you to just get on the internet and type in a few addresses and a brief message. You’re really stiff necked.
Hethe: You have a point. The argument isn’t really about, nor has it ever been about, the idea of sending reasonably priced cards. It’s always been about the necessity to incorporate that business idea into an MLM structure. If I were the one who thought of the idea to print cards from some warehouse upon virtual request then there’s no way I would have also though of making it an MLM. Cards, good idea. MLM model, not a good idea. The argument could be about any MLM. Sendout Cards just happens to be the subject matter here. Anyway, I don’t see any reason this company, or any MLM these days, needs to exist. There are no more rural word of mouth scenarios like what Tupperware and and Mary Kay had when they started. Word of mouth happens even quicker these days on the internet and facebook than any MLM could hope to take advantage of. Nobody is buying these products because a salesman comes to the door or their neighbor has some incentive to tell them about it, they’re all listening to their friends on facebook and reading blogs instead. MLM’s are a leftover from the past when the only way to reach certain areas of the country was to get the neighbors talking to each other at social events. Facebook has made that model obsolete.
Regarding what you say about the income opportunity. I don’t know. That’s a good question. I don’t know what the adjustment would be for distributors who never decide to sell. You would have to probably create a new level on the grid, those who lost money rather than were flat or made a little. But, like you say, those people surely drag down the numbers. The question is how much and if it would make the stats look worse or better to include them as a category of those who register negative earnings. Thanks again, Hethe, for keeping this a civil conversation!
Jklingo: I don’t know what you’re talking about. How does spending money double ones income? I’m annoying? That might be true; I’ll take it as a compliment.
Hi Hethe,
The median annual income of a Manager, according to the Send Out Cards disclosure documents is $791. That’s about $70 a month. For some people, that could be a nice side income– enough to buy Starbucks a couple times a week. Consider that only 1 in 50 folks even make it to this level. Then compare it against the promises made and expectations set.
Now consider the value of your time. If you time is worth $100 an hour, then you better be spending less than an hour a month on this MLM business. Let’s say that you spend 10 hours a month (including driving time, talking time, or even time to comment on blogs like this). Then it works out to $7 an hour, not including gas, the cost of your meals, and so forth.
If you’re a business person, you’ll looking at your time versus your money. If you’re buying cards just because it’s an enjoyable hobby– not because you want to get rich quickly– then it doesn’t really matter. But if you are doing it for the money, we’d love to hear what you make versus how much time you put in, so that we can calculate what your time is worth to you.
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Keith, I ‘almost’ completely agree with you. Having a company be MLM for MLM’s sake usually means the product or service is inferior and can’t make it on it’s own, I have felt that way for years! I love the internet and the quick price comparisons I can do… also the research at my finger tips. Now I got “ShopSavvy” on my phone and it is the BOMB! Personally, had I done any occupation besides sales when I came across SOC (and so I had the need for a quick easy way to keep in touch, and do it in larger volumes) I most likely wouldn’t have seen the value in having SOC either. Originally, it was just about the .62 cent card and automation, it was all I cared about for my business. It turns out that the only reason this company can do a .62 card is because it is an MLM, the word of mouth coupled with the 1 to 1 help people give when introducing the product. Had it been a traditional business model there would be no way it could have such low costs (find any other company that is not an MLM and compare, they can’t make money at .62 per card). The internet and facebook are making most all MLM’s obsolete but this particular one needs more than free advertising to succeed, it also needs extremely low costs, and the person using it needs help getting set up for first time users. No traditional company can justify the time and costs of doing that at .62 cents. [What I just wrote ended in a bit of a ramble] so in summary, value in SOC comes with low costs which it can’t do without being an MLM, therefore I’m ok with it being one because “Users” know exactly what they are getting.
HI Dennis!
I’d use the “average” over median but that’s ok, let’s use median. As a manager, most likely the majority of your income will come from personal production and not from downline residuals, so let’s assume we have nobody signed up who is sharing SOC. A manager who signs up one person makes $220, so at $70 per month income that means they sign up 1 person every 3 months. But… I do realize that at the time of the above statistic a manager was making only $170 for a personally sponsored distributor, that’s about one person every two and a half months. Going on your assumption of a person spending 10 hours in the business per month that means it would take 25 hours to sponsor one person in the business. 25 hours per 1 distributor sponsored is way off base!! If someone IS spending 25 hours to sponsor 1 person they need to stop whatever it is they are doing… and either ask for help or go to the training sight. My personal experience is it takes showing 4 people SOC to get 1 Distributor. Even if it took 10 people per 1 sign up, you could show over 20 people SOC in 25 hours. This is also assuming that we have nobody on our team showing anyone. If just one person on our team sponsors a person that is $100 in our pocket (but at the time of the above stat it was $50 in our pocket). Does that give some clarity? Seriously, 25 hours for 1 distributor is not something I’d sign up for.
Ok the whole point of it is to keep in contact with people and with today’s evolving technology it’s nice for people to receive a solid card. It let’s them know you care of course nothing can replace you stopping by their house but the card is always nice especially when there is a picture. The whole residual income doesn’t just come from the people you sign up but from the cards they send out. I use send out cards for my business. It’s family run and it draws people in when they see a picture of the whole family and it often recycles some of those old customers. Haha and ya you’re not annoying just misinformed. My bad hey but really I like the site. I was kinda upset when I first read it but hey you wouldn’t have all of the people visit your sight nor would you get all the comments if you were some big peacekeeper.
I have been using SOC for three years as a tool for my Promotional Products business – it has brought in thousands of dollars in new business and reorders from keeping in touch with clients and prospects. I am also an active distributor and realize that SOC is like any MLM business most do not succeed and most never advance – you must keep in mind it usually has nothing to do with the product or services – it’s a fact most are lazy and don’t put in the effort to succeed at an MLM business or life in general.
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Tim: You can’t say that sendout cards is responsible for your new business, only that sending cards has something to do with it. They could just as easily have been printed from your computer or bought in bulk from some mega-store. In fact, I could say you might even have MORE business if you had written them by hand. I would never send someone a card that I did not write myself. If I got a card that wasn’t written by hand I would throw it away and think nothing more of it. It might be your message on the card, but in terms of relationship building, it shows laziness. Clients are worth at least a hand written card.
Tim: I sent you an e-mail but, I got a message back saying that “Spam Arrest” had to verify my e-mail before sending it on to you. I find it rather hilarious tha