The Truth about MLM Schemes – SendOut CardsLa verdad acerca de las estafas de MLM – SendOut Cards
By: Dennis Yu
A guest post by Dennis Yu, CEO of BlitzLocal, provider of local Internet advertising services.
The Federal Trade Commission requires that MLM companies provide an Income Disclosure document. If they don’t have one readily available or it sounds too good to be true, run in the opposite direction as fast as possible. Let’s do the math on SendOutCards, which is the latest MLM company to gain widespread attention, especially among stay-at-home parents. We’ll compare how it’s different than the affiliate model and local model.
Note: We’re not saying that ALL multi-level marketing models are a scam—just that you should read the facts before you put down your hard-earned money.
The value proposition of SendOutCards is strong—you just send out cards. Meet someone on the street, make a new friend at a conference, connect with friends at a church luncheon—just send a card. Make connections—and sending someone a physical card is so much more powerful than just an email. You can potentially make someone’s day, since getting something in the mail is usually unexpected.
But it’s not a Hallmark greeting card. Instead, you go to the web and enter in their name, a message, and choose a postcard style to send them. They compare the cost savings to buying a $3 card from Hallmark. At only a dollar, seems like a great deal.
But what is the cost of providing the service? We know that the cost of bulk printing cards is only a couple pennies. These aren’t cards with custom images, nor are they the super high quality cards that you’d find in a gift shop. These are laminated postcards run in batches of hundreds of thousands or more. SendOutCards is almost literally printing money when they get sales here.
Great business model, right? You sign up your friends, your friends sign up their friends, those friends sign up everyone they know, and BOOM—you are rich! You’ve got hundreds of thousands of people under you all sending cards to each other. All the while, Hallmark, American Greetings, and all those other card makers are out of business, right
You should plunk down money for their most expensive package now to secure your maximum downline.
What if five robbers were robbing for you and they each recruited five more robbers to rob for you?
But look at the Income Disclosure document. 69% of distributors didn’t earn a penny in 2008. In fact, the median distributor earned only $124.34 last year. Absolutely 0.00% of people made it to the Eagle level—the top tier. And for the next highest tier, called Senior Executive, only 0.02% of folks— that is 2 out of every 10,000 people—the median gross annual earnings was $33,741. And it took folks an average of 21 months to get there.
If only 2 out of 10,000 people make it to that level and then are grossing only $33k (that’s gross, not profit), then if you’re an average human being, the odds aren’t that good of you getting rich.
At the end of the day, a MLM company makes money not from end users buying products, but from people selling other people on why they should sell. The focus is on the selling of others, not the actual product itself.
In affiliate marketing, affiliates are paid a commission when they generate a sale—there is no downline. The cost of sales usually is in the 5-15% range.
In MLM, multiple downlines—5, 6, 7 levels deep—can cause cumulative commissions to be over 80% of the product’s selling cost. That’s not including profit that the MLM company must make, shipping/distribution costs, general marketing expense, and so forth. Just do the math and consider that if an item sells for $100 retail, then the actual product likely can’t cost more than $10. That’s why health supplements and software products are marketed through MLM channels.
Now consider the local affiliate model, where the analyst or representative gets between 10 and 25 percent of the revenue and 50-70% of the revenue is used to actually buy traffic. That means if you are a cosmetic surgeon spending $1,000 a month for Google advertising, then up to $700 of your money goes towards actually buying ads. The remaining $300 is for the analyst managing your account, paying for the systems used to manage your campaigns, and a portion to maintain your website (assuming you are getting that as part of the deal).
Apply the local model to MLM and you’ll see the math won’t work. Imagine that same cosmetic surgeon spending $1,000 a month. If only $100 of that actually went to buying traffic, you wouldn’t get many clicks. Clicks for “liposuction” and “scar removal” are about $3, so you’d be getting 33 clicks a month—or one per day.
If that same client went through a local advertising agency, they’d be getting up to 7 times as much traffic—so instead of one visit per day, 7 visits per day.
You do the math.
Un artículo del escritor invitado Dennis Yu, CEO de BlitzLocal, proveedor de servicios locales de publicidad en el Internet.
La Comisión Federal de Intercambios requiere que las compañías MLM (Multi Level Marketing – Marketing Multinivel) te provean con un documento de revelación de ingresos. Si la compañía no tiene uno a la mano o parece ser muy bueno para ser cierto, corre para el otro lado tan pronto como sea posible. Hagamos las cuentas con SendOutCards, quien es la última compañía MLM consiguiendo una gran atención, especialmente entre padres y madres de hogar. Compararemos sus diferencias con el modelo filial y el modelo local.
Nota: No estamos diciendo que TODAS las compañías de marketing multinivel sean una falsedad – solamente que tú deberías leer todos los hechos antes de pagarles el dinero que tanto trabajo te ha costado ganar.
La proposición de valor de SendOutCards es fuerte – tu solamente tienes que mandar cartas. Conocer a alguien en la calle, hacer un nuevo amigo en una conferencia, conectar con viejos amigos en un almuerzo de la iglesias – solo mándales una carta. Haz conexiones – y el mandar a alguien una carta real es mucho más poderoso que mandarle un correo electrónico. Potencialmente, tú puedes hacer el día de una persona, pues el recibir algo en el correo siempre es inesperado. Pero, no es una tarjeta de Hallmark. Lo que haces es ir al Internet y entrar el nombre, un mensaje, y escoger una tarjeta postal y darle enviar. Ellos comparan el costo ahorrado con una tarjeta de Hallmark de 3 dólares. Comprando esta postal a solo un dólar parece ser una ganga.
But it’s not a Hallmark greeting card. Instead, you go to the web and enter in their name, a message, and choose a postcard style to send them. They compare the cost savings to buying a $3 card from Hallmark. At only a dollar, seems like a great deal.
Pero, ¿cuál es el costo de este servicio? Sabemos que el costo de imprimir tarjetas postales al mayoreo es de unos cuantos centavos. Estas no son tarjetas postales con imágenes especiales, ni tampoco son de alta calidad, como las que encuentras en una tienda de regalos. Estas son tarjetas postales laminadas que son impresas por ciento o por millar o aun más. SendOutCards esta, casi literalmente, imprimiendo dinero cada vez que vende una postal.
Un gran modelo económico, ¿cierto? Tú enrolas a tus amigos, tus amigos enrolan a sus amigos, y esos amigos enrolan a todas las personas que ellos conocen, y PUM – ¡eres rico! Tú tienes cientos y miles de personas bajo tu nombre todos mandándose tarjetas los unos a los otros. Mientras tanto, Hallmark, Amrican Greeting, y todas esas compañías que hacen tarjetas se están poniendo en quiebra, ¿cierto
Tal vez deberías dar un enganche para comprar su paquete más caro ahora y asegurarte un máximo linaje.
>What if five robbers were robbing for you and they each recruited five more robbers to rob for you?
Pero checa su documento de revelación de ingresos. 69% de los distribuidores no ganaron ni un centavo en el 2008. De hecho, el promedio recibido por un simple distribuidor fue de 124.34 dólares el año pasado. Absolutamente un 0.00% de las personas alcanzaron el nivel de Águila – el nivel máximo. Y para el siguiente nivel, llamado Ejecutivo, solamente el 0.02% de personas — esto es cada 2 personas de 10,000 - el promedio de ganancias fue de 33,741 dólares. Y les tomo a las personas un total de 21 meses para poder alcanzar este nivel.
Si solamente 2 de cada 10,000 personas van a alcanzar este nivel y ganando en bruto solamente 33,000 dólares (eso es en bruto, no en ganancia), entonces, si tu eres un ser humano promedio, las posibilidades de que te vuelvas rico no son buenas.
Al final del día, una compañía de MLM no hace su dinero con los clientes comprando sus productos, pero con las personas vendiendo la idea de porque es bueno vender este producto. El enfoque es en la venta de otros, no en la venta del producto mismo.
En marketing de afiliados, a los afiliados se les paga por comisión cando generan una venta – no existe un linaje. El costo de la venta es usualmente entre el 5 y el 15%.
Los múltiples linajes de las compañías MLM – 5, 6, 7 niveles de diferencia – pueden causar que las comisiones cumulativas sean hasta de más de un 80% del costo de los productos vendidos. Eso no incluye la ganancia que la compañía MLM debe tomar, gastos de paquetería y envío, gastos de marketing en general, etc. Simplemente haz las matemáticas y considera que si un producto se vende en 100 dólares, entonces el producto no puede realmente costar más de 10 dólares. Es por eso que los suplementos alimenticios y los programas para computadoras son vendidos y promocionados por vía de compañías de MLM.
Ahora considera el modelo de afiliados locales, donde el analista o agente de ventas toma entre el 10 y el 25% de la ganancia y el 50-70% restante es usado para comprar tráfico actual. Esto significa que si tu eres un cirujano plástico que gasta 1,000 dólares al mes en publicidad con Google, entonces 700 dólares de tu dinero es utilizado directamente en comprar anuncios. Los restantes 300 dólares son para el analista administrando tu cuenta y para pagar por los sistemas utilizados para administrar tus campañas publicitarias, y una porción para mantener tu pagina de internet (asumiendo que esto es parte de tu contrato).
Aplica el modelo local al de las compañías MLM y veras que las matemáticas no encajan. Imagínate que el mismo cirujano plástico se gastara los 1,000 dólares al mes. So solamente 100 dólares de esos son utilizados para comprarle tráfico, el no estaría consiguiendo muchas visitas. Visitas para “liposucción” y “removimiento de cicatrices” cuestan aproximadamente 3 dólares, así que él estaría consiguiendo 33 visitas al mes – una al día.
Si el mismo cliente fuera con una agencia de publicidad local, estaría consiguiendo hasta 7 veces más trafico – así que en lugar de una visita por día tendría 7.
Tu haz la cuenta.
Wow, I have to put on my thinking cap for your post. It must be around here somewhere.
Thanks Dennis, it never hurts to step out of our box and learn something new.
I always look at these things with a very sceptical eye. Like you said, if it’s too good to be true, it usually is. However, the lure of easy cash is always a strong one.
.-= Scott´s last blog ..5 Parenting Hacks For Dads Of Toddlers =-.
It’s a shame that people fall for these schemes. It isn’t unexpected because people really do need to make a living. Sometimes people just don’t have a few months to wait to make a legitimate business. For instance, building a successful blog takes months. Lot’s of people don’t have that kind of time. They grasp at straws and that’s how they fail. Of course, these MLM companies rely on that desperation and gear their marketing towards the most vulnerable among us. Thanks so much for the comment, Scott.
Hi Dennis/Scott/Keith/J.:
I actually use the SendOutCards system. I am an attorney, and I’d like to make sure that some of the issues in the above are addressed.
First of all, the cards are actually all printed one at a time – not on “stored cards.” In fact, if you would like to make your own cards using your own photos, logo, or the like, you can put them on the outside or inside of the card – for 31 cents (for as many photos as you want). You can make a postcard, sure – but that’s only 31 cents. You can make a regular greeting card (62 cents) or a trifold or “brochure” card (93 cents) – plus postage. They are not “laminated postcards made thousands at a time.”
The cards are recycled paper and soy ink – and of a higher quality than the standard “Hallmark card” that claims the same (because they are glossy, which Hallmark won’t pay to do on the soy ink/recycled paper cards). If you’d like to send a card on me, I’d be happy for you to do it – go to ww.blablablabla and have at it. If you want to put a photograph in or on a card, after Kody Bateman (the president of the company) walks you through sending a greeting card, click on “Picture Plus Demonstration” on the “Card Manager Main Menu” and once you watch it, you can make some Picture cards, too. Yes, I’m paying for you to do it. And the stamps.
The system will ask you for your address, phone number, and email. The company receives these ONLY to both CALL AND EMAIL YOU if you are sending a card that doesn’t look right (you used too low of a res photograph, for example). However, I don’t really care if you put 415-555-1234 and tryingitout@yahoo.com – because the point is, I think you should try the system and see what you think, and I don’t really care if you sign up. It needs your address because that becomes the return address on the envelope. And yes, the envelope has a real stamp, too. And no, no spam, you don’t become part of some conspiracy to steal your identity and move into your house. They don’t store this stuff. I will get a copy of your email and phone number, but so long as you put a bogus one, or make your email obvious that it came from reading this blog (e.g., dennisyuismygod@yahoo.com), I won’t contact you. I generally send an email out of courtesy to anyone who tries out the system, but so long as you put an obviously bogus email address, it will help me to not bother you.
Most people sign up to SendOutCards to use it in their actual businesses. I did this, as an attorney. The system allows me to send out one card to many folks, or cards one at a time. Each card is physically checked for imperfections in the ink or in the card (here is a movie of this I took at SOC corporate: iremovedthislink.stupid) and every card is checked after it’s in the envelope, to be sure the name on the envelope matches the name and address on the card (here is a video of this I took at SOC corporate: anotherdeletedplug.sellingsomething). This is a very high-touch system. It’s the best system I have ever found to truly market my business. Asking for folks to click through on a website is not the same as showing honest gratitude to someone – and often, being able to say things that I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying on the phone. Email marketing has gone the way of the dinosaur. How many emails and “Constant Contact” e-brochures have you deleted today? Dozens, I’m sure. I also like that the SendOutCards system notifies me when someone’s birthday or anniversary is coming up – so I can send them a greeting card, or a gift (there are a few 100 gifts that you can send through the system, too).
With SendOutCards, there is a one-time license that you pay to use the system. To become a Distributor, it’s only $100 over the perpetual license to be a Wholesale member and use the system. Since you get $120 if you sign someone up, most people (like me) sign up to be a Distributor just “on the off chance” that “some day” someone might be interested in the cards (because of a card they have perhaps received). If so, that $120 check pays for the $100 differential, plus $20. This is fairly typical of MLMs: Folks sign to be Distributors NOT because they want to work the business, but because they figure that if they do, and someone’s interested, they will get a little bump.That’s why the numbers suck on “Distributors that make $ at this.” Most Distributors are NOT doing it to “make $ at it.”
In fact, that’s why ~I~ signed as a Distributor instead of Wholesale. I thought – what the heck. The first time we used the system, my secretary and I sent out 50 cards as a campaign to clients that we hadn’t heard from for a while. Because there is a mail merge feature, I was able to make a personal card showing gratitude to these folks, and send one card that was then personalized to each person and mailed for me – in a real envelope, with a real stamp. Morever, as you can upload your own handwriting and signature, the cards came out in my own handwriting, with my own signature. A copy of each and every card is also saved on your online Contact file for that person.
3 of these clients called me to give me more law business – which is why I actually did it. But 5 of them called me to find out how I got my “ugly lawyer handwriting” into the great card. So I showed them (just like you can do, on the link above), and they signed up to use the system, themselves, buying the one-time Wholesale license and becoming Wholesale users. This means I got 5 x $120, which more than paid for my license and cards I would send for a few months. Since I knew I was going to use the license and system for my law business, that was great. Someone just paid for my “Marketing Dollar” – sweet! I also continue to make $ on the cards that they send out – and (had they signed as Distributors, which they did not), I would make $ too.
The focus in SOC is definitely not on “selling the system.” It’s on sending cards, and showing gratitude. And making a little passive business income if someone that you send a card to wants to see how you did it. Some folks make more, some less, but the deal is, that this is something you can use every day to better others’ lives.
I think comparing affiliate marketing and something like SOC is comparing apples to oranges. Obviously, Dennis, you’re ~selling~ affiliate marketing. But it’s best not to say that something like SendOutCards is a “scheme.” I’m interested in what Scott said, “…people just don’t have a few months to wait to make a legitimate business…” SendOutCards makes no “get rich quick” claims. In fact, it very specifically states that this is a Relationship Marketing Tool, in which you can make some downline income – basically a marketing tool that can certainly pay for itself. There isn’t actually any lure of “easy cash” – unlike many of the MLMs or Direct Marketing companies I have seen. And, if someone is going to “wait a few months to make $ in a legitimate business,” they could certainly sign up to be a SendOutCards Distributor, and if they’re using their energy to get folks interested in the system, they very specifically will know what they will earn. I walk every person (BEFORE they sign up) through it.
Also – the product is the service and the service is the product. If you are using SendOutCards to show gratitude in your actual business – or even to send Xmas cards or show gratitude to those around you – there’s no need to “sell” the system. If people like it, you can “show” it to them. This is how SOC differs from the vitamin companies, makeup companies, juice companies, “pay my mortgage” companies, and the like, where you are required to “sell” and get people to “stay on the product” to “see the benefit.”
So, if you’d like to try out the system, and send some cards on me, so you can see how nice the product is, and what a great system it is, please go ahead. Please put in bogus information, because I’m not interested in you becoming part of my “team.” I just think that before throwing aspersions on the product, it’s best to actually have experience with it. And, as a final word, do make sure (obviously) you put in your correct “snail mail” address, so that the return address on the envelope will be correct. If you want to yell back, or blow me off, or NOT try out the system – go ahead. Just thought that Dennis, Scott, Keith, and J, that you would all perhaps like to see how the system REALLY works and how the product REALLY looks, as opposed to just imagining it.
Have a great weekend.
Sandy, I appreciate that you have a different opinion about what this MLM business is. I removed the links that you added though because I don’t think they are relevant to your argument. You should also mention that you are up for an award for your selling efforts for sendoutcards. You make money when other people sign up — so you should mention that you have a vested interest in promoting sendoutcards. Again, I appreciate a lively debate — I really do. I just want everybody to know that you are making money on it while I am not.
Hey Keith! Again – I do make money when folks sign up – but that’s why I SPECIFICALLY wanted to be SURE that people gave me fake information to try the system.
I think the most important thing is for folks to try the system – so that they can see if they like it or not. Believing that they do NOT like it from misinformation above is just a shame. Throwing aspersions on the quality of the cards, etc. is really quite awful and gives the wrong idea.
If someone told me apples were poisonous, I would not eat one. If an apple seller said to me “Look, it is NOT poisonous and I want to be SURE you don’t tell me who you are, and I don’t really care if you ever come back, but apples are GREAT, so would you like to try some for free?” Now, you’re probably instead going to turn that around (I can hear it) to someone offering “crack.” But I think that’s disingenuous. Because if someone gets “addicted” to sending greeting cards, I think it’s more like apples than it is crack. It’s not bad for you, and in fact, it spreads joy throughout the world.
I did say I get $ for folks signing up – I said that very specifically. I paid off my license fee and a few months of cards by the folks who initially signed up. I wish I could give you someone ~else’s~ website to try it out – that’s fine.
I’m not quite sure why removing the links to the folks looking at every card by hand, etc. was necessary, but that’s up to you.
I understand you are “not making money on it” – of course you’re not – but this posting talked about the quality of the product and how the product is produced and it is ~not~ correct. Since seeing is believing (or “receiving” is believing), the ONLY way to correct this (versus my saying “no, it’s not, believe me”) is for people to send some cards.
Again, if people go to (wow! you tried to insert another link) and put in ~totally bogus information~ so that they can just ~send a few cards~ (incorrect email, but one I can be SURE to know comes from here so that I don’t call to see if the person was able to send the cards OK), then they can at least see for themselves.
Better yet – why don’t you do it? Sign in, I can see your name is “Keith” so make sure your email is obviously bogus, and try the system and send a few greeting cards. To yourself, why not? So that you can at LEAST see the quality of the cards, and that the system is useful whether or not it has an MLM component to it. I frankly don’t care if folks sign up under me. But I very much DO care if the product is maligned without someone taking the time to use the system, and of course go through the picture plus demonstration to see how the make their own greeting cards, too.
So, don’t post the link (again), but at ~least~ go there yourself. My difference of opinion isn’t really with what “this MLM business is” – it’s with the “apples are icky and poison” comment about the cards and specifically how the cards are produced (hence the Facebook links).
Have a good weekend.
Listen, Sandy. I told you not to link here, yet you tried to do it again. The reasons are basic, and you would know that if you were really the internet marketing expert that you claim to be (I googled you). This is very simple, and I’ll say this as clearly as possible. ALL MLM schemes are bad — every single one of them. By definition they support themselves by the accumulation of new member. I don’t really care what the product is to be honest, I care that pyramid schemes are dishonest business models that hurt people. They prey on people who think they can get rich on the efforts of others. They have been around forever, and they are ALL dishonest. Crack, Apples — doesn’t matter. I said it clearly in my last reply to you; I enjoy an honest discussion and debate. I do not however enjoy having to remove another one of your links when I told you once already not to do it. That says something about your desperation to get people to sign up with you.
Hi Keith!
Oh my gosh you gave me the best laugh of the day re that I know how the internet works! I’ve used it for 20 years (and do internet and licensing law) but that’s like saying because I drive a car and know the law of the road I know how the car works
So, I was still puzzled, and I called a girlfriend who does this sort of thing. I explained to her what was going on – that there were misstatements on a post, that said things about the cards that came from SendOutCards, and also said things about MLMs, which I didn’t really care that much about (you could totally be right – I haven’t done any research on it), but the misstatements about the cards themselves irked me. So I told her I had given a link so that anyone could just go and see the cards, send some themselves, and that I specifically said to put in a false phone number and email, so that I would know it wasn’t someone really interested, it was just someone who could see that the cards were not as listed in the original post.
She ‘splained to me that because of the link, somehow the sites get “tied together” even though I said to put in false information – it has to do with pointing to the website. Who knew. That this could make my website come up before someone else’s website. Again, who knew.
So, I now totally get why you took the links out, because it has something to do with pushing my website or pulling it.
I hear that you say that you don’t care about the product – but you see, I ~do~. I think that you could make your exact same point (because you have the numbers) but still at least not have misstatements about the product itself.
The one thing that was not to do about the product (that most distributors don’t make money and why I think that might be possible) I said in the first post, so there’s no need to talk about it again. The only thing I’m trying to address is the misstatements about the product that you get.
I know that you have the website link (I bet you’ve memorized it, after my putting it in twice!). I really would like you to try the product. I’d like to say do NOT go to my website – go to one of the thousands of SendOutCards links – the only thing is, those people might actually think that you might want to sign up for a license, and I know that you don’t.
I’m still trying to address the “mass market postcard where you can’t put your own information/photos/etc.” portion, so that’s why the link. That I would never put in here. No no no, no NO no no. Bad link. Bad very bad. If that portion of the article was missing, describing the products in a way that is not even close to correct, then I wouldn’t even have written or put the link in.
Okay, time to get back and enjoy the weekend. Thanks so much for the laugh about being an “internet marketing expert” that’s going to keep me smiling all day.
Enjoy your weekend,
Sandy
Hi Keith,
Just read these posts and noticed that you got upset at Sandy for having her links here. I attached mine earlier after reading the other article (hadn’t read this one yet) Sorry about that!
Vanessa
It’s ok Vanessa. Honest mistake
Thanks for your addition to this debate. I wish you luck even though I doubt the validity of the premise.
Hello,
SendOutCards is not a MLM company. It is network maketing, which is entirely different. Money is earned right away. The people that actually WORK, make money, and those who don’t make little or nothing. As in any company, executives make more that those who are just starting. Sort of like farming, no plowing, no seeding, no harvest.
Lou Barba
thanks, Lou, for the comment. MLM is not defined by the ability to make money right away or not. MLM is defined by the structure of the organization. I disagree with you that Sendout Cards is “entirely different” than other MLM companies. I would say it’s entirely the same, with the exception that we’re dealing with greeting cards and not makeup, cookware, plastic containers and legal services. The argument is not necessarily about the product — it’s about the structure of the company.
what kind of attorney has a potentially raunchy picture attached to their email? Doth protest too much, Madam…
wow, what a heated discussion. I guess the bottom line is always check out the management of any new start up company and with google, that’s not a hard thing to do anymore. I stay away from the companys that try to pressure you into joining now, join now, be the first to get in. If it’s any good, you can always join later after the dust settles.
.-= Dan´s last blog ..Pay-Per Click” Ad Campaign: Earn More By Spending Less =-.
Dan, that’s a good way of looking at it. Most people get into trouble because they are impatient and desperate. Therefore they don’t think, and they get scammed.
Hey… check out Sandy here. Is it possible to commit defamation of character against yourself?
http://www.beabondgrrl.com/
That’s great, Steve. Thanks for the find
I think that while SendOutCards is definitely an MLM, most of us who use the product are not actually in it to make that much money out of it. To be honest – I see value in the product because I actually use it — I am horrific when it comes to sending out cards both personally and in my business, and what convinced me to buy into it was the fact that when given a gift account, I actually used it to send cards out to folks.
As a graphic designer, I have the added advantage of being able to customize the cards to my liking. I am actually using it as a marketing tool in my own business – I see it as a way to very quickly do a campaign to send to a particular vertical industry to try to sell my design services to.
That being said – a side benefit is that I have signed up 3 folks for the system as well, and made a handful of cash back. Am I going to retire on this, or am I likely make it up the “ladder” at all? Nope. Not really. And honestly, as long as I’ve made my money back, and I’m seeing value in my primary business as a result of using this service, then I’m a happy camper.
Just my two cents. And you’ll see that the link I’ve included initially is to my design business — not to my SendOutCards site.
LOL! Mona, I can respect that.
I’ve tried to say it a billion different ways to people and you seem to really get it. The idea of sending cards and is a good one. I’m not opposed to it as a useful service because some people find benefit in it. I have a problem with people trying to make a business out of it. MLM’s have the tendency to bring the worst salesmanship out of otherwise honest people. Thanks for the thoughtful and truthful comment!
Dennis it sounds like you’re against MLM, period.
SendOutCards isn’t any different to any other MLM program – with the exception of having an unique product. The reason why most people don’t make a decent income with any MLM (SendOutCards included) is that they do very little to make it work.
The business world the stats are similar… 80% of new businesses fail in the first 5 years. That’s traditional businesses like lunch bars, clothing stores, etc.
Making a decent income from any business requires risk, effort and hard work.
Mark: The standards of success for MLM’s and other businesses are not the same. For an MLM to be considered success you only need to make something. For other businesses the standard for success is whether they support your family and make you a real livable income. Thus the fail rate of MLM’s is more like 99%. Not the same thing at all.
1) MLM was declared a viable a legal way to do business over 30 years ago by the Supreme Court.
2) All MLM’s are scams and bad? What?
3) I know of one MLM company that has THREE former State Attorney Generals on their legal advisory board. I guess they are just in it for the money and to hurt people, right Keith.
4) From my personal experience I have recruited and properly trained many people who don’t do anything. A lot of people get a Real Estate license and never have success. Does a person’s lack of effort make the company/MLM bad? Does not having success in real estate make that a “scam” too?
5) What is your real beef sir? YOU are hurting people with your dumb opinions and lack of full knowledge.
6) Some MLM companies have an A+ rating with the Better Business Bureau. But I guess since you write this column you know better.
7) Make sure to put on your garlic necklace and clutch your wooden cross tightly as you read this.
8) You are an asshole.
Kent: This is what the internet does to people. Way to stay civilized. Why exactly are you so upset? If you want to disagree then that fine, but to become so completely unhinged is a little odd. I’m guessing you must be involved in some MLM yourself and you just want to protect your business. Nevertheless, that’s no excuse for the uncivilized comments. I’m fairly sure you don’t talk to people like this in “real life”.
Hi Keith, or is it Dennis Yu?
I’m really not sure who I am talking to.
I found this column because as an Executive with SendOutCards, I like to keep informed on industry gossip.
Thanks for all the good press for SendOutCards. We appreciate all you do for the industry by keeping it top of mind and therefore giving it more credibility and SEO.
Keep up the good work. You are my kind of guy.
Cheers, Barry
Barry: You’re welcome. And every comment you, or anybody else makes, moves me even further up the rankings. If you knew anything at all about SEO you might know how that works. Now, if you had made a comment on a blog or website that said something positive about sendoutcards then it would have increased the popularity of that other article. Instead, you commented on this article, thereby increasing my popularity and authority. I’m not sure if you intended to increase my popularity, but you just did — albeit minutely. It all adds up. You just helped SEO my site.
Nice article. A few points:
1. Network marketing and Dual marketing are MLMs. Period. Just another way of deceiving recruits.
2. 97-99% of MLM folks lose money, often thousands of dollars. They are very often people who can least afford to lose that kind of money. They also incur damaged relationships and emotional states.
3. The TOPPs (top of the pyramid people) and the creators often make obscene amounts of money by specifically causing the others to lose money, not by selling the overpriced pills, potions, lotions, greeting cards or legal services. Anyone who participates in an MLM in any fashion, even by just purchasing the product, is at least indirectly contributing to the harm MLMs cause, and should, IMO, consider an alternative.
4. MLMs are legal pyramid schemes: the products make them legal, and the DSA is very powerful, rich, and politically influential- they effectively killed the FTC biz-op rule.
5. Everyone hates lawyers, until they need one. But there are plenty of unethical lawyers who rationalize and work for MLMs, or can’t earn enough income at their chosen profession, so they branch out and also shill for MLMs, as our “good” attorney has. Dateline ran a story several years ago about Amway, er Quixtar, and interviewed a physician who got wrapped up in it.
6. The arguments about not working the business, new business failure rates, BBB ratings, comparisons to the insurance or the real estate industry, and while not yet mentioned, the “all businesses are pyramidal in shape” are fallacious arguments. Read Jon Taylor, Robert FitzPatrick, or Tracy Coenen. Or read about the BBB. They are one step above Chambers of Commerce (supporters of businesses), and seem to be getting worse, not better. I suspect the BBB has never really been a consumer advocacy group, but their new grading system has brought their shoddy practices into the light.
7. Our angry poster appears to shill for Melaleuca, if he used his real name: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kentliwen The company he is referring to sounds like Pre-Paid Legal. Former Attorneys General are politicians/lawyers who are no longer serving in an official capacity, and their endorsements mean nothing. (Other than perhaps a few bucks in their pockets) Poor PPL is really having a really hard time these days, and may eventually cease to exist.
8. Keep up the good work!
Doo Dilly: Thank you so much for illuminating and specifically listing all these points which everybody needs to hear. If there’s one thing I’ve found out since starting to write about these MLM’s it’s that their supporters can be rabidly and irrationally opposed to the facts. Thank you again for the research. MLM’s prey on people who think making money is easy. They turn ordinarily average people into dishonest shills.
Let me start by saying that I am Pro mlm….however, I don’t drink the “kool aid” and some of the propaganda the industry puts out.
I remember when Send Out Cards (SOC) first came out and thought some of the very same thoughts in your post..
I have over the years gotten my post cards from US post office. Which I still believe they contract out so you can get newsletters and postcards and everything else in between printed and mailed out on your behalf at a reasonable rate. Which is why I never seen the income potential in this particular venture.
Yes, it’s true that some companies inflate their prices so they can go to an mlm payout (not sure if this company pays out on multiple levels…some companies don’t)…which is why the product has to have true consumers (people NOT interested in building a business) counted amongst its ranks.
On the flipside, to think that the big fortune 500 companies don’t inflate their prices of their products in order to pay big salaries to the big wigs that sit up on top of their pyramid game is a bit naive at best. C’mon million dollar bonuses?! Even those people involved the downfall of the U.S. economy.
If you really want to get your panties in a riff, start checking out the REAL cost of products outside of the mlm realm.
Just my 1/2 cent worth…
Interesting topic Keith. Keep up the awesome work on your blog.
Corrisa
.-= Corrisa´s last blog ..MLM Lead Generation: Unlocking the Secret =-.
Keith, I’ve only read a few of your comments to Sandy and I feel I must say something NOW!! HOW in the world can you say that MLM companies are dishonest and scams? Really?? In this century? Get with the program. Do real research. I am at the VP level in a company called Arbonne. (It took only 17 months to get to this level….some get there sooner and some take longer) My income is incredible! My company has an extremely high success rate. Everything is visible on the website. You do not have to have an ID number to see it all. I have also helped 2 other women get to this same level. Our products (health and wellness and skincare) are some of the best on the market. They are healthy, safe and very effective. And the price is very reasonable compared to other products that are of the same quality. I was able to buy my parents (in their 80s) a home in my neighborhood so that I can help them and watch over them. One of the girls on my team that also promoted to VP is a single mother of 3 girls. She has build a residual income that will also help her to provide for and educate her daughters and she is able to stay home with them and be connected as a parent on a daily basis. Her life is in balance because of Arbonne. There are MANY Network marketing/direct sales/mlm companies that are absolutely legitimate and contain MANY success stories. When you read negative comments/blogs from people about mlm, they are generally people who wanted to “get rich quick” and did not know it actually required WORK!! Also, you have to have a genuine love for helping others and getting along with people. Network marketing is about building relationships. People do business with people that they know, like and trust. If you are not genuine, it shows. And you will not be successful. And then that person badmouths a wonderful industry and unfortunately it becomes an obstacle for all of us. Most network marketing companies (like Sandy said) have an option to sign on as a “distributer” or wholesale/preferred customer. These folks usually just get a discount on the products and never sell or build a business. That is why the numbers are skewed.
Please stop saying negative things about an opportunity that truly has a level playing field. We all have the same opportunity to get to the top. Your income is based solely on how much you work your business. Not on who you know, or who you slept with or who your father was or where you went to school.
This business model is making it’s mark in the world. Many companies are turning to it to improve sales. Relationships work, they are fun and they enhance lives.
Mary: WOW! you got to x level in 17 moths! Holy Shit! That makes it sooooo honest! I can’t even believe how successful you are and how honest that makes it. You mean that pyramid schemes are completely honest because it took you 17 months, the price is reasonable and the financial information for the company is available (as is required of all MLMs by law by the way). I’m going to have to look into this because I had NO IDEA that my honesty increased along with my success. Incredible.
Ahhh, Arbonne. Evaluated way back when:
http://www.pinktruth.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=601:an-analysis-of-arbonne-commissions&catid=63:arbonne&Itemid=108
But I’m sure things are much better, now, right? Yeah, sure.
PRESS RELEASE
11-9-09
Arbonne International to Pay $30,000 To Settle EEOC Disability Discrimination Suit
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/11-9-09.cfm
Oops.
How Does a 30 Year Old Debt Free MLM Company Go Bankrupt?
http://www.profitablenetworker.com/2010/02/01/how-does-a-30-year-old-debt-free-mlm-company-go-bankrupt/
Well, it was Chapter 11. So I’m sure everything is fine by now- at least for the company. Interestingly Ty Tribble’s Blog has been scrubbed of the articles linked in the above article, which had many comments posted, both defenders and insiders that where leaving.
Shouldn’t you be out working your business, Mary?
BTW, I meant “insiders (aka reps) WHO were leaving.
Another old article found–I’m once again sure things have changed…NOT.
“Arbonne Scam: My Confession
http://arbonneanonymous.typepad.com/arbonnescam/2006/05/i_am_currently_.html
Same dog, different fleas…
Wow! I go out of town for the weekend and come back and the blog has closed comments! I just wanted to say hi to Keith and DooDilly… it’s actually been kind of fun talking with you both on that other article.
We part ways with a difference of opinion… perhaps somehow someway we will pick up where we left off.
Keith: I really like your blog… I’m glad I came across it. I tried to subscribe a week ago but I couldn’t, there was an error. It worked today.
DooDilly: I really like your well thought out comments and am extremely impressed with your internet researched comments and links. Really cool of you to put your username to good use.
Keep an eye on SOC (I’m sure you will) as things change over time. Don’t be afraid to get a hold of me if you ever have any questions you want answered from a guy on the inside who also likes to do his DooDIlly before making decisions. FYI, they have (as of Saturday) made some big changes and you can send cards without being a member of SOC. TaTa! See you on a different article!
-Hethe
Hethe: Jeez, you’re right. Jack started commenting, I started replying. Doo Dilly came in, and it just went from there
Thanks for coming back, Hethe. We might disagree, but I appreciate that we can be civil.
Hi all,
This has been a very informative, educational, and entertaining Blog topic!
Let me start by giving you some info about me. (Lest you google me and find out anyways).
1. I am an SOC distributor. (For the time being)
2. I own a Flooring Contracting business.
3. I am a HUGE fan of the SOC product.
4. I don’t like liars
5. I am not an English major (grammar mistakes will be made here)
Now that we have that out of the way, let me start with the positives:
SendoutCards delivers an outstanding product (at least up until Jun 19th when everything crashed) that can do wonders for any existing business by “appreciation” marketing. I was introduced to SOC through BNI and immediately saw the value in the product.– As a sidebar, BNI does not allow members to feature the MLM aspects of their business, although I later discovered that a large percentage of the members were indeed involved in MLM enterprises.– I signed up as distributor without giving much thought to it. As was mentioned by previous posters, I figured that I might sign up a couple of people and recoup my initial investment–which I did.
I repeat, SendoutCards has an excellent product, and a system that will benefit anyone who wants to show appreciation, either on a business, or a personal level.
My criticism of Keith (blog host) is that — in his zeal to open the eyes of the blind — he (and the author Dennis Yu) have posted several inaccuracies regarding the excellent SOC products, as well as the very tangible benefits to those who use it as a business tool, rather than a way to riches and happiness through the glorious path of MLM! I realize that the frank and sometimes rather scathing and controversy-building nature of the replies are by design. After all, this is how Keith makes his living. However, I think that his arguments – however valid – are less likely to be accepted if the SOC product is not accurately portrayed.
Before I get to my main point, I just want to say that I have been agonizing over this for some time now. I have questioned my upline and got nothing but fluff. I have posted on “TalkingSOC” and got nothing but rhetoric and propaganda. My question: Is MLM moral? Is saturation inevitable? I found this blog late last night and have read just about every post. Nothing written here was a new thought to me but it has helped me make a personal decision regarding MLM in general and SOC in particular.
My verdict? MLM is inherently flawed, greed driven, and doomed to failure. For an honest hearted person there is no loophole. (I know. I’ve looked!!!) There is just no way of knowing if you are presenting a real opportunity to your “prospect”. Numbers do no lie as Keith has stated numerous times in his replies to MLM zealots. No matter how you justify your own business, you are riding on the back of many sincere people who are doomed to failure. The propaganda machine at SOC is extremely effective, and the leadership is afforded a near messianic status by the faithful. We are told that the motives of the leadership are love, and a desire to change the world through greeting cards. Honestly, it’s enough to make me toss my cookies!
Here is an example of SOC love: The recent 6/19 announcements involved an upgrade, which will cost $99 for each existing entrepreneur to buy. (Not mandatory, but if you want to keep up….) Leadership is showing its love my giving $70 out of the $99 to the field. i.e. upline. Nice bonuses!!! Way to keep the upline happy and the propaganda machine churning!
Okay, so I’m a little upset. You got that right! SendoutCards has a great product, but I will never ever again endorse it. I could never do so with a clean conscience. I will not renew my distributorship lest I be tempted by the siren call of the glorious freedom and riches to found in that bastion of virtue known as Multi-level Marketing!
I will however continue to use the superb products to further my “honest” business ventures. After all, I have certainly paid for them!
Regards,
Ron
Ron: I have not seen the product in quite some time, so perhaps they have made improvements. I’ll give you that; I could be wrong. I agree that the principal of sending out cards easily from your computer is a fantastic idea. But, like you, I have a major problem with the MLM structure. By it’s very nature it’s dishonest. They essentially take what could be a good product (my judgement on that will be reserved until I see it again) and toss it out the window by putting the focus on MLM. Now it’s about nothing more than selling the opportunity of more sales rather than the cards themselves. Just like any MLM, the product becomes secondary to the opportunity. That’s a shame too, because if people do like the product, they’ll have to wade through the mud to get to it.
I disagree about SOC being as valuable a business tool as the company would like us to think it is. Sending cards and small gifts is indeed a pretty good idea. But, when someone get’s something from Sendout Cards they’re going to know that the sender is involved with an MLM. That could be met with indifference or scorn. If it wasn’t an MLM model , people would see the card for what it was — just a nice card. Unfortunately, people will be put off by knowing it’s an MLM, and that dilutes the business effectiveness of the product. To send a customer an appreciative card, no matter how well meaning, is undermined by the customer’s knowledge that it was sent via a MLM.
Ron, I have to say that that was a wonderfully clear and well written reply. Thank you.
Hi Keith,
Regarding a client knowing that a card is sent through an MLM, that is something that a very small percentage of folks would pick up on. If you provide me with an address, I will send you a card. That is, if the system ever comes up again. It has completely crashed with the latest upgrade and the faithful are furious!
On the other hand, I sent an appreciation gift to a friend and business acquaintance and it was packaged in a “SendoutCards” box. Basically it was packaged in an advertisement. At the time I was “courting” my friend to join sendoutcards. They loved the card, and the gift, but my friend commented that the “sendoutcards” packaging for the gift was tacky. She was right.
So I appreciate your point, but I don’t think it applies to the cards, which are the primary product. If you want me to send you one, let me know — but no free brownies!
Regards,
Ron
Hello again,
If you take into account the number of people who buy the distributor package to take advantage of the wholesale pricing plus being able to make a sale now and then to recover their investment and pay for your cards, the statistics the company discloses won’t have much meaning. People buy things and people sell things…hopefully the two shall meet. If you want a sure thing, become a funeral director.
Lou, I love that last line… “People buy things and people sell things… hopefully the two shall meet. If you want a sure thing, become a funeral director.”
That is really cool!! If you made that up… Mad Props to you!
For all those still reading this thread…
Have you heard of Warren Buffet?
Warren Buffett is one of the top 2 or 3 WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD.
Warren Buffett started a company called Berkshire Hathaway.
The last time I looked, their stock was selling for $100,000+ per share. Yes, you read that right. $100K+ per share.
They have to sell like 1/100th of a share of Berkshire. The stock price has gone up about 20% every year for the last 40 years.
Warren Buffett is not like a Bill Gates or a Paul Allen. Those guys made a lot of their original money, on ONE DEAL.
What Warren Buffett did is he became an expert on taking other businesses, buying up real good model working businesses, that turned a profit, and he’s done that for years. And he does it OVER and OVER and OVER again.
He specializes in buying companies that REALLY WORK.
Now, Warren Buffett, the 2nd or 3rd WEALTHIEST MAN IN THE WORLD, owns a company called Pampered Chef.
Yup, he owns a company called PAMPERED CHEF.
Before he bought the company, he researched it, he actually went to two meetings in the Omaha area, sat through the meetings, and he liked it enough that he BOUGHT the company.
He thought Pampered Chef warranted him investing his money and buying the company.
If Warren Buffett doesn’t have a problem with that kind of business model, is there something you know that Warren might have missed?
Is there something you know that Warren Buffett should maybe be made aware of?
Bill: This has been talked about.
1: Yes, Warren Buffett buys profitable companies
2: The fact that Warren Buffett makes money has nothing to do with YOU making money
3: Nobody here has ever suggested that some of these MLMs are not profitable. In fact, we have said just the opposite. They are, indeed, massively profitable for some people — those people not being you.
4: Your reasoning, then, is — wait, give me a second because I’m trying to figure it out. Warren Buffett makes money, therefore I’ll make money? Is that your reasoning?
5: Legality: Yes, SOC and Pampered Chef are totally legal companies. They are bought and sold just like every other company out there and they make some people a lot of money.
6: Bill, you do NOT buy and sell companies. You are a drone who is working to make money for the people who buy and sell companies. Your loss is their gain. They aren’t dumb enough to pass up the chance to take your money if you’re going to be so willing to give it away. Warren Buffett doesn’t give a damn if YOU make money, he only cares that he’s making money.
7: Are you perhaps under the impression that Warren Buffett cares about you? Do you think that he’s super honest and couldn’t possibly be capable of just looking out for his own bank account? Don’t hold your breath.
I covered all of this just a few comments ago.
Wow, the arrogance to tell someone that they won’t succeed or make money.
Let’s say one of your kids decided to do something you don’t think they would succeed at. Would you kill their dream too?
Listen, Ace, you know NOTHING about me. However, I already know that I don’t want your attitude and I don’t want your outlook on life.
Why should I listen to you vs. people who have the attitude, the financials, and the outlook on life?
And they’re backed up by people of character of a Warren Buffett who only buys GOOD WORKING MODEL BUSINESSES. Why should I listen to you vs. Warren Buffett?
Bill: Go right ahead and lose your money. I just got finished telling you why Warren Buffett’s purchase of an MLM means nothing to your making more money.
If one of my kids got involved in an MLM I would absolutely warn them that it’s a stupid bet. Your dream is to make it in an MLM. I’d say your sights are aimed pretty low considering “making it” in an MLM constitutes earning slightly more than min-wage. Way to go, Bill! You’re a success! In fact, if one of my kids tried to convince me of the virtues of an MLM, I might just write a full damn book about why that’s a dumb idea. Like I just got finished saying, but which you chose to ignore, YES MLM’s make lot’s of money. They just make money for the OWNERS! NOT the suckers who buy a distributor package and try to sell their friends on “opportunity”.
Don’t listen to me, Bill. Listen to the raw numbers. Read the data. If you really want to own an honest business then do THAT instead. Buy product, set up a store and sell it. Heck, franchise a fast food restaurant. All you need for that is an investment and the ability to follow instructions. But an MLM? Good luck, ACE!
And one more thing, Ace. You might think my telling you you’re about to make a bad investment is arrogant, but what if I told you throwing coins in a wishing well was a bad investment. And what if you believed in wishes being granted. You’d probably call me arrogant. You’d call me that because you are so sure that fairies exist who will grant your wish. How arrogant of me to suggest otherwise! Fine, don’t believe me. Throw that coin in the well. See what happens. Go ahead — do it. It’s not my coin. I just warned you is all.
The SendOutCard’s blogs are the first I had read from this site, a week or so ago. I hadn’t noticed at the time that I could comment, until I wanted to comment on Keith’s Sleep Arrangement note.
I appreciate it. I think it’s well written and informative.
My opinion: MLMs are not a way to get rich quick. Some people are successful in them. Others aren’t.
E.g. Tupperware: I know people who have repeatedly earned about $200 spending 2-3hr at a Tupperware Party with the right skills.. and others who join and don’t make a penny (but get a whole lot of Tupperware)
Many join because of the recruiting pitch they heard.. about how easy it is to make a lot of money. It’s not that easy. As in any business, you need to give to get.. and not just for the start-up costs.. Having a business be successful requires well-used time, effort, and money. You need the right training and the confidence to use it.
Income disclosures are required, and that’s good. But even they don’t give an accurate depiction of an MLM’s opportunity. Average earnings include the majority who sign up to get a good deal on a product, who don’t actively pursue business and have it mainly for personal use, or a hobby, or who joined because of a flashy opportunity video and never took did anything with it.
The majority of people who don’t make any money in MLM’s because they’re not putting the required, time, effort, and resources in it. I’m an example of one of those people bringing down the SendOutCards income average. I joined a few months ago. I don’t earn anything from it, because all I’ve down so far is send out a few birth announcements of my daughter (which were beautiful) and an advertising campaign for my cleaning business (which was cost effective). I know someone who says he makes a lot from SendOutCards, which is believable mostly because he runs a large business networking group and therefore has shared the opportunity with a ton of people. I personally don’t know how likely it is to make money with SendOutCards, but I do like the product.
I’m also in Tupperware. I love the product, and use a lot of it, daily. I’ve made some good money in it, not a lot. I’ve had great training, and they give great bonuses and rewards. I just generally don’t have it in me to get people to have parties.. mostly because I don’t even ask.
In sum: Getting any business to be profitable isn’t easy. If you think it will come easy, you’re fooling yourself.
I join MLMs only if I see value in the product, I’d recommend the same for anyone.
And for me personally, I like them to relate to my core business.
Fresh Start Green Cleaning: http://www.FreshStartGreenCleaning.com
(my “from scratch” business)
My Tupperware: http://www.FreshStartGreen.com
(MLM)
My SendOutCards: https://www.sendoutcards.com/freshstartgreen
(MLM)
Emilie: It’s not your fault you didn’t make money at MLM. It’s quite common for, in fact it’s part of the psychology of the MLM following, people like yourself to first blame themselves for not making money. But, how can you blame yourself when the system is designed to see you fail. It really is! I know it seems crazy, but MLM’s are not designed for you to become rich or even make a dime. They’re designed solely for the enrichment of those at the top. Just step back a little and do the math. You will see how you’re spinning your wheels for nothing. You can’t make money selling product, and that leaves only recruitment. How many recruits have you gotten. One? Two? Three? Three would be fantastic, but it still wouldn’t make you money because what are the chances that those three, out of the many thousands who will not get any, will get enough to send an relevant amount of money upstream to you? I don’t want you to think I’m against you by saying this, simply that you’ve been had and you probably think it’s just because you didn’t put in the effort. The truth is that the effort you put in wouldn’t make any difference. Have you calculated what you believed you’ve netted? If you don’t mind me asking, once you’ve figured in the losses, how much money have you netted? Does it add up to more than min-wage after the hours you put in?
Tupperware, admittedly is an excellent product. I haven’t heard of Fresh Start Green Cleaning.
I have various friends and family members in various network marketing companies. Some are making money, some are not.
What I wanted to comment on is the ilogic of your comments regarding how these schemes are designed for people to fail at the same time you comment on how only the people at the top make any serious money. How is it they get up there if these systems are designed to cause people to fail?
You and the likes of John Taylor do not know what you are talking about. What saturation? Tell that to 130 year old Avon. All these companies have to do is add another product, just as any other company does after it’s huge network is in place.
That some of them are crooked is not debatable. That many of their representatives are not worth dealing with is also true. That all are like that; come on. There are some decent, both smart and hard working people in some of these companies is fact, as far as I am concerned as I have had the pleasure of counting some as friends.
In fact, I am meeting with one of them tomorrow for lunch and have no fear whatsoever that they will try to recruit me. You simply are not right to categorize all people in this odd industry of theirs as one and the same.
I suspect you will never see otherwise, and that is your perogative. Not because you are any more right than they believe they are, but because like them, you simply believe you are regardless of any so called fact or fiction otherwise.
The world is full of doubting Thomases on both sides of the fence of everything out there. You are no more right nor wrong outside of that than anyone else on either side; you just believe you are right. For that, I feel sorry for you.
You haven’t heard of Fresh Start Green Cleaning because it’s a small Niagara Region company in Canada that’s less than two years old. My husband and I started it ourselves, it’s not an MLM at all. It’s just our own small business.
Tupperware has excellent products. I haven’t calculated my losses, but I personally don’t spend much.. Brochures come out monthly for $3.25 for a pack of 20, and the 20 pack of catalogues that come out quarterly are about $14. I don’t buy Tupperware unless it’s on sale or available as sample, and only if I want the product. I’ve gotten a lot of my stuff free from sales meetings or rewards. I signed up mainly for the 25% off, and because they sell good microfibre cloths for my cleaning business.
I am a small business owner and have heard some things about send out cards. It looks like an interesting product that would help my business, but I want nothing to do with the mlm side of it. Can I just sign up without getting a sponsor? Are there alternative products that I can use without getting involved with the mlm side?
Brian: If I were you I’d send cards from a non MLM company and save yourself the effort of navigating around the sharks.
Keith:
I remember a flight from Salt Lake to Phoenix filled with Xango distributors; it was about the longest flight of my life, so I would love to avoid anything like that again.
I haven’t been able to find any companies that have a contact management system where I can send cards periodically to my customers, and I’ve heard sendoutcards is actually pretty good for that. I would love some recommendations of specific online companies that do what send out cards does but without dealing with the MLM garbage I don’t have the time or interest in dealing with.
Contanct management? Quickbooks will do it. Also Quickbase is for client management, and of course, Basecamp. Companies don’t use SOC for client management. We have more clients than most small businesses and SOC has never entered into our thinking for client contact. In fact, I can’t think of anybody who uses SOC for that. People who use SOC also sell SOC. I don’t have time for that crap either so I do what all companies do — manage clients with proven software and hand written letter and phone calls. You don’t have time or interest in finding client management software? That’s sorta a basic component of business.
No, I have crm software and quickbooks. I was looking for something more to manage thank you card campaigns. Sending 7-10 thank you, holiday, and follow up/reminder cards a year to customers is getting kind of unwieldy as our business grows. From what it says on the basic sendoutcards page is that you can enter someone’s contact information and then automatically send them cards. I haven’t tried it so I don’t know exactly if this works.
I have received thank you cards I assume came from sendoutcards(looks handwritten but printed and postmarked SLC) and I am looking for something similar as an automated way to keep in touch with my customers. I guess my question is are there any companies that can print and ship cards and manage a card campaign that isn’t MLM?
BTW I think you’re thinking of highrise. Basecamp is project management
Brain: Oh, yeah. Your right. Basecamp is project management. I don’t know about auto-sending cards. You’re right, SOC does advertise that. And, if I weren’t so against the company for it being an MLM I would probably say that’s an excellent idea. It’s just so hard to get involved with SOC and not, at some point, have to deal with the hard sell. I’ll have to look and see if another company advertises the same thing but without actually trying to suck you into MLM. I’ll get back to you on that when I find out!
I just had to reply because the ignorance here is huge. I am NOT a Sendoutcards distributor, but a customer and am very happy with their products. I have also tried a few
Direct Sales companies where I failed – mostly because I didn’t do what I was told and trained to do!
However my beef with you, Almighty Dad, with all due respect, is that you do not know the difference between Pyramids, which are illegal, MLM’s and network marketing.
Pyramids focus on recruiting solely, cost a lot of money to get in, and they have a “token” product so they can call themselves legal. They tell people all they have to do is bring more people in and they will get rich. Pyramids collapse quickly and only the people who start them make money. They then move on, start another pyramid and fluke more people out of their hard earned cash through greed.
MLMs – Not a bad system. You sign someone up under you and they have to buy inventory.
YOU get a % of their WHOLESALE inventory purchase from the company as the recruiter/trainer. If you have a good trainer, it’s totally legit and you can make money.
My company, which I will not name because I’m not out here to get recruits but to educate you,
is a Network marketing company. If I bring someone into the company, I get a % of their retail SALES, so if they don’t make money, I don’t make money. A GREAT system! There’s
no inventory to purchase. BTW, I have made good money doing my DS company business for 18 years. $80,000 a year right now but I have earned up to $125,000 a year, depending on my attitude and how hard I chose to work.
There are more women earning over $100,000 a year in Direct Sales than any other business in the US and now men are really getting on the bandwagon too.
There are definite benefits to having your own MLM or network marketing businesses:
1. Extra income – in this economy, everyone should be looking for multiple streams of income
2. HUGE Tax benefits
3. Many other benefits, tangible and intangible, like trips, recognition and appreciation, flexibility, high quality training that is great for future work endeavors.
So….WHY DON’T MORE PEOPLE EARN REAL MONEY IN LEGIT DIRECT SALES???
1. They won’t do what they are trained to do because:
2. They’re afraid of the word Sales person – they don’t realize that Sales is a service and sales jobs keep other jobs going! Manufacturers, Distributors, etc.
3. They’re afraid of NO’s – think it’s a personal rejection instead of a rejection of their product.
4. Inconsistent – if they hit a roadblock, they get discouraged and don’t push through. There’s no BOSS to tell them they have to Consistent actions are key.
4. Unbelief – in themselves mostly but maybe in the product / company they are working with.
Those that DO WORK their business DO make money in legitimate Direct Sales businesses!
It’s the old 80/20 rule:
You wear 20% of your clothes 80% of the time, you use 20% of your tools 80%
of the time, and 20% of people do 80% of productivity.
I feel your articles like this are harmful because they may discourage someone who really needs and wants extra income, from trying something that may not but could change their life.
IT’S UP TO THEM HOW FAR THEY TAKE IT.
Direct Sales is a way for people to own and run their very own business without a ton of financial risk ( Except for pyramids)
Donald Trump said His one regret is that he never got involved in Direct Sales.
Warren Buffet bought The Pampered Chef.
These are businessmen who understand and see the value of Direct Sales. You should not
lump them all together.
Sincerely, Leslie O
Can’t agree more that building a list is important. I wish I would have started building a list years ago. One problem is email is becoming more and more difficult with spam issues.
Hi, I went to a networking event Meetup (all people looking for work). A married couple was approaching people at the event with talk of how they could make 20k a month with SOC. They gave out forms offering a free card. She told me for $290 (which sounds like it’s just the beginning) I could sign up to sign up others. I said that’s a pyramid. She said “if you want a pyramid, don’t come to us.”
At the same time she said this, I heard a guy telling her husband, who was also giving the sales pitch, that it sounds like a pyramid, and the husband had the exact same comeback! Very slick. They had this whole cultlike spiel about Robert Kiyosaki and network marketing.
I happen to sell cards as an artist on several Web sites that print the cards and mail them, so I was interested in the card part. I described the card sites I’m on and how they work and asked if SOC was like that. She said it was was completely different. I said but isn’t the money coming from selling cards? She said no, it’s coming from getting others to sign up to get others to sign up. When I asked why I should pay to sign up, she said “we don’t want people under us who aren’t serious about making money.”
No matter how much I asked about the cards, she NEVER MENTIONED that businesses send these cards to clients, or that the site puts the addresses in a database. It was only after Googling “sendoutcards scam” and coming to your site that I learned this. (Now I understand that there at least is SOME kind of useful service here! Though I’d steer clear of using such a sleazy place and I don’t like the idea of SOC having clients’ addresses.)
From talking to her, I thought the only cards were the free single card I’d get if I filled out the little form (there’s no way in Hell I’d give her my contact info!) I concluded that the sole purpose of the cards was to have a concrete token to make you think there is some product–a true pyramid. It seemed like she didn’t even KNOW about the card part of the business! Now I see there is a product and the pyramid scheme is almost another branch of the company. The relationship is unclear. If anyone can use the site without a distributor then no connection is necessary between the parts of the company.
It’s disturbing that SOC people came to an honest networking event to take advantage of people who are hurting, promising them the sky. Probably the SOC people were hurting too, but only they were out to take money from others. I also think it’s not fair to use another organizer’s Meetup for selfish reasons.
I do plan to contact the organizer and Meetup about this.
SOC scammers, stay away from these events, we don’t need you!
the simple reason people dont make money at anything is very very simple
Its their fault and it doesnt matter what deal they are doing
fact is
there are many people in the same cities all over the world in mlm deals.
their are those with the same opportunity that make money and those that dont
And the reason baffled me
until i heard a great audio from Big Al which I did on my website
http://www.goodnetworker.com
that will prove a lot
now to make money with send out cards you have to show people the business and sit down with them, it requires work and most people just dont do that
and for the reasons i said listen to that audio …fab
Patrick
I think SOC is a great service. I am a happy customer. And if you believe in something, you would want to promote it. But then I looked on their comp plan. It was so very difficult to decipher. I don’t mind having to pay a fee as a license to sell SOC. After all, it’s their idea. But for $295 (a marketing distributor pkg), I would want to see how much I can make.
I simply wanted to promote a great product, and make some money doing it. I have a day job, but could always use more income. But their comp plan looks complicated. What if I just wanted to tell people about SOC who I think could use the service (people who deal with lots of customers). How much do I have to sell to make a really really really modest $200month?
This is truly a fascinating posting place for SendOutCards and I couldn’t pass it up. Keith, I admire and appreciate your stick–to–itiveness and convictions about MLM’s and I felt the way you do for many years. Here comes the but… But, I fell in love with SendOutCards and the rest is history.
I love it so much that I wrote an article called Home Greeting Card Business – a Love Story and I’ve been using the greeting card system since 2009.
In defense of Keith, people at the top of MLM’s make the most but they are also the ones willing to stick their necks out to ask others to join and help them in build a business. You call it a scam they call it a business. The value is truly in the eye of the beholder and both arguments have truth in them.
In defense of SendOutCards, I believe the government would have shut it down by now if it were a scam and people were getting ripped off. The company is compliant with the laws and rules set forth by the U.S. government.
A pyramid scheme is defined as a non-sustainable business model that involves promising participant’s payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public.
SendOutCards is and has been a sustainable business model that supplies real investment and the sale of products and services to the public for years. You could say that I’m brainwashed and you would be correct but in good way.
I know when I’m being ripped off because I have been before by another MLM company that I won’t mention here.
From what I’ve read here, no one will ever convince Keith that SendOutCards is a cool company with cool products that help families eat and pay bills and that’s okay. That’s what I’ve find with SendOutCards people making a decent living and providing for their families. I haven’t met the ones that feel cheated, ripped off or feel like they are being scammed.
I design movie posters for film makers and I use SendOutCards to promote my business and it’s a great tool for that.
The company has restructured many times to make sure they are compliant with government regulated laws so you get the most for your money. They have continually improved the business to keep distributors excited about using the products or building a business.
The latest restructuring of the company points to retail sales of greeting cards with a pay as you go system that works great.
I’m sure I haven’t convinced Keith that SendOutCards is cool fun and profitable but it felt good to share. If anyone needs a movie poster for a film please visit http://indieposter.com
Keith thanks for letting ramble and all the best to you. Peace